[Shane]

The topic on this one was: Who is the best non-North American born hockey player ever?

Iskhur chose Jaromir Jagr/Mark chose Peter Forsberg

Iskhur's Article:

Jaromir Jagr

At the eve of a new NHL season, with a new emphasis on opening the game
and
making it fun for offense again, Jaromir Jagr is on a mission. He wants
to
prove to everyone that he is still the best player of the post-Gretzky
era,
and easily the best non-North American player to ever grace the NHL.

Jagr’s offensive production has been staggering in an era handcuffed by
stifling defensive strategies the past decade. As of this writing, he
sits
at 1323 career points, good for 24th overall in the entire 100-year
history
of the NHL. The scary part about this is, at age 33, he insists that
his
best days are still ahead of him, and at the pace he’s going, will
probably
pass Jari Kurri (1398) sometime later this year for the spot of most
prolific European sniper of all time. Before all is said and done, if
he
stays healthy, by the time he retires we might see hockey historians
re-sculpt the holy pantheon to put him second, perhaps, only to Gretzky
in
terms of raw offensive point production.

Such a prolific weapon hasn’t gone unnoticed. The Czech has picked up
some
pretty generous hardware over the years: a Gold Medal with the Czech
Republic in the 1998 Olympics (the first Olympics to allow NHL players
to
compete), two Stanley Cups with the Penguins, two Lester B Pearsons and
a
Hart trophy in 1999 despite only playing 63 games. But probably the
most
amazing accomplishment are his scoring titles. Jagr became the first
non-North American player to win the Art Ross trophy when he captured
the
league scoring title in 1995. Since then, he has won it four more
times. For
comparison’s sake, only four other players in league history have at
least
five Art Ross awards sitting on their mantels: Wayne Gretzky (10),
Mario
Lemieux (6), Gordie Howe (6) and Phil Esposito (5). That is some
extraordinarily exclusive company. Jagr is not only the only European
among
this group, but he was also the only player good enough to finally
interrupt
the 16-year succession of Gretzky and Lemieux scoring titles in the 80s
and
90s, as the heir apparent to their reigns.

In 1996, his best season, Jagr broke Mike Bossy’s record for most goals
by a
right-winger with 62 and assists for that same year (87), arguably
making
him the deadliest right-winger in NHL history.

Jagr has impressive work ethic. Back in his days in Pittsburgh, he
often had
a routine where he would show up to the arena two hours before game
time,
before everyone else, and run laps around the upper deck’s hallowed
halls. A
strong proponent of physical fitness and personal improvement, Jagr
never
slacks off or looks for excuses. Only nagging injuries have kept him
from
operating at optimum efficiency.

This year, a re-invigorated Jagr is where he should be—back in the
thick of
the NHL scoring race, with 23 points in 16 games. One could chalk it up
to
enthusiasm after being away for a year, and interest in what the new
league
is like after several years being in a sort of funk due to its
suffocating
defensive paradigms. But personally, I think it’s because he’s growing
his
hair back. He’s like Samson when he has that lovely, curly black mullet
of
his.


Mark's Article:

There have been a plethora of great foreign hockey players, but none were better than Peter Forsberg.

There have been some great Russian players, and Vladislav Tretiak was a player I gave strong consideration before settling on Forsberg. He was one of the greatest goalies to play the game, but my main problem was with the fact that he played too long ago and didn’t play against the top competition in the world. I have the same issue with any player who didn’t play in the NHL or played a few decades ago. The game has changed drastically and the competition has improved tenfold with the addition of foreign players and the different training regimen’s and the defensive changes we’ve seen in the game. There is no question that, prior to the lockout and rules changes, hockey was seeing its toughest offensive period (which was a big reason for the rules changes).

Despite the strong focus on defense in the past 10 years, Peter Forsberg still thrived on the offensive side of the game. From the moment he came into the league, he was a star. His first year in the NHL he won the Calder Trophy (rookie of the year) and led the Nordiques to the top of their division. He’s also won Viking awards (for top Swedish player in the NHL), numerous player of the week and player of the month awards, named first team all-star several times, named captain of the all-world team at the all-star game, and was the first swede to win the Art Ross trophy. Most importantly, he led his team to win the Stanley Cup twice.

Forsberg is considered the game’s best player right now, not the best foreign player, but the best player in the entire league. Since he’s been in the league, he has always been considered one of the elite players. He has been a consistent top-5 choice for the Hockey News top-40 players list every year and even in years he’s limited to injuries he still averages better than a point a game. His game simply does not slow down. The offensive numbers he puts up, during the time when the NHL’s defense was at its best, are simply staggering. He has always either led or been near the top in points per game and, on top of his points, his +/- is always among league leaders.

I think one of his most impressive attributes is his ability to score. Anyone can score with enough shots, but Forsberg has one of the top shots in the game. In the last full season of hockey Forsberg led the league in shooting percentage (an underrated statistic). There is no question in my mind that Forsberg is the best non-North American hockey player because he has consistently performed at the highest level and is one of the game’s most able scorers in history.


Iskhur's Rebuttal:

Peter Forsberg!?!?

Excuse my french, but Peter fucking Forsberg?

Why anyone would count on anything from Sweden to be the best in
anything is
beyond me. Forsberg was lucky he got saddled up with arguably the most
dominant team of the last decade, and he STILL punked out for most of
that
time. Statistically speaking, he isn't even in Jagr's galactic orbit,
let
alone his league. It would be generous to say he can wear Jagr's
jockstrap
for a game or two.

Both players are relatively the same age. Jagr has nearly twice as many
points as Forsberg. And when Jagr got hurt, he still played hard,
through
his injuries, and still averaged over a point a game in a league that
had
gotten so suffocatingly defensive, point-a-game snipers were rare. What
did
Forsberg do during this slugfest? He punked out like a wimp, skedaddled
back
to Sweden and took an ENTIRE YEAR OFF (2001-2002) (and in another
season
only played 39 games before whining and quitting while whining
quittingly)
because the game was too tough for him.

The mark of any great player's legacy to the league he devotes his life
to
is the magical milestone of 500 goals. Peter is lucky if he reaches
300.
That puts him right up there with such legendary hockey powerhouses as
Doug
Weight and Keith Tkachuck. His exploits have been overshadowed by more
prolific Europeans like Peter Bondra and Teemu Selanne. Forsberg is
lucky if
he reaches Hakan Loob status in his own country. Nicklas Lidstrom has
just
as many points, and he's a DEFENCEMEN. His Calder was already slanted
in his
favour: He was 22 when he won that. Yeah, real special award there,
pal.
After already playing professional hockey for five years (four after
he'd
been drafted), narrowly beating out fresh-faced, wet-behind-the-ears,
18
year olds straight out of Junior to win the best "Rookie" award. Give
yourself a pat on the back for that one. It's like cheering on the kid
in
school who got held back a year.

And this is Forsberg's greatness playing on the most offensively
stacked
team since the Edmonton Oilers. God knows where would he be if he
didn't
have guys like Claude Lemieux, Chris Drury, Milan Hejduk or Alex
Tanguay
(and, currently, Simon Gagne) to feed the puck to all those years.
Granted,
Jagr also had the advantage of being under the tutelege of Lemieux for
the
first half of his career, but he's been pretty much on his own since
leaving
Pittsburgh (and even most of the years in Pittsburgh, when Lemieux
wasn't
around), and he's been on some very horrible teams with no help at all,
and
still maintained his productivity.

Forsberg has a special nickname: Floppa. It means something admirable
in
Swedish, but here it has an unintentionally hilarious double meaning.
More
than any other high-profile player in NHL history, Forsberg has
mastered the
art of falling down from the phantom trip. I've seen him hydroplane 20
feet
when knocked over by a heavy wind. The king of acting like he's just
been
shot, Forsberg has single-handedly earned his team's accolade "The
Divealanche". It's amazing, with that one (ONE...I SAID ONE! You know,
the
number that is four less than Jagr's FIVE) Art Ross and Hart Trophy,
that he
doesn't have a couple Oscars to go with it. It is quite a spectacle to
behold that, with the slightest touch of a stick, causes a catastrophe
that
launches Forsberg through the air like he was shot out of a cannon.

Best non-North American player? Please. He's good. He's done some okay
things. But he's not even ready for the Hall-of-Fame. He's in Peter
Stastny
territory at the moment: Impressive tier-2 really good hockey player.
Get
him for your hockey pool, most certainly. Get him for your Stanley Cup
contender? Well, that's what you got Sakic for.

Jagr, meanwhile is rocketing forward to being part of the Magical
Pantheon.
That pedestal that whispers names like Orr, Howe, Richard, Gretzky,
Lemieux,
Esposito, Roy, Messier, as the pinnacle of hockey excellence, all time.
If
only Forsberg didn't spend half his career flopping all over the
ice....




Mark's Rebuttal:

There are many reasons why Jagr simply isn’t the best non-north American hockey player. I will give you the biggest one- Jaromir Jagr is a pussy.

Outside of that, there are plenty of reasons Forsberg is better. Jagr scored a lot in his career, I get that. But to roll out his stats are an insult, because he has been in the league for a long time, much longer than Forsberg. Also, the category wasn’t “who was the best non-north American scorer in the NHL?” If it was, you have made a valiant case for Jagr. Unfortunately, the topic was “who was the best Non- North American Hockey player. Jagr has a lot of points, no doubt, but Forsberg is a better scorer. In fact, Forsberg has a higher scoring average in NHL games than Jagr does, which means Forsberg would wipe out any statistical accomplishment Jagr could ever dream of if they had played the same amount of time in the NHL.

Also, Ishkur claims that Jagr’s best days are ahead of him, but he hasn’t scored over 80pts in a season since he left Pittsburgh. Jagr has been one giant disappointment the past four seasons and to say anything otherwise would be a joke. The guy has completely flopped and while he has been able to score early this season (who is that ahead of him in the rankings?? Is it, why yes it is, PETER FORSBERG), no way can he keep it up for the whole year. His best days are long past.

As for the scoring hardware, I’ve already shown that they would be Forsberg’s if he had the same amount of playing time, and he can match Jagr for Stanley Cups. So what is the difference between these two players? Well, one is leadership, but you can’t measure that. The biggest difference is that Peter Forsberg is a COMPLETE player, which means he plays defense too. Jagr is one of those Euro types that infuriates Don Cherry to the point of making him urinate on a map of Europe.

The most jarring example of the difference between these players is their plus/minus ranking. For those that don’t understand hockey, a player gets a plus if he is on the ice when his team scores and a minus if they are scored against. Surely Jagr must have a much much higher plus/minus than Forsberg since Jagr has played so much longer, so most people would want another averaged comparison. Actually, that isn’t even needed.

Jagr’s career +/- is 212. Forsberg’s career +/- is 219, despite playing 451 less games than Jagr!!!!! Let me reiterate- Jagr has played in 1047 games to Forsberg’s 596, but still Jagr has a WORSE +/-! How is this even possible? This makes absolute no sense, right? Wrong.

Some might tend to say, wait Mark, Jagr plays much more special teams than Forsberg. To that I’d say, “Bullshit, you are completely wrong and should feel ashamed of yourself for saying that.” Truth is, Forsberg sees a great deal of time on the penalty kill and COME ON, it is completely inexcusable for Forsberg to have a higher +/-. Especially since Jagr has always played on very talented teams. Jagr can score just fine, he is just a non-factor on his own side of the ice.

So with comparable championships and scoring statistics, it is painfully obvious that Forsberg is the better of the two because of his VASTLY superior defense. Oh, and if you needed any further evidence, remember, Jagr is a PUSSY!