Quarterfinal Match: Dmon vs SSigman

[Aveosmth]

Ok here is the last quarterfinal match!!

The topic is: Who is the greatest reliever/closer of all time?

Dmon picked: Mariano Rivera

Mariano Rivera is the best closer/reliever of all time. Since his MLB debut in 1995, Rivera has 348 saves which places him 6th on the all time list after only 10 seasons in the MLB. His career is ERA of 2.41 and he has won 49 games in his career. He led the Major Leagues with 53 saves and was tied for fourth in the American League with 74 appearances for his team in 2004. He is one of only two pitchers in history to record two 50 plus save seasons. His 2004 performance gave Mariano his third AL Rolaids Relief Award along with the two he won in 1999 where he led the Al ith 45 saves, and in 2001 when he led with 50. Rivera has also recorded 35 or more saves seven different times in his career (1997-2001, 03-04), and has had a 2.0 ERA or less 5 different times in his career (97-99, 03-04). He is a five time all star (97, 99-02), and has been third in the running for the Cy Young Award which is award to the best pitcher twice (96 and 99). However, his dominance in the regular season is nothing compared to what he has done in the postseason to help his team.

In 1999, Mariano pitched 4.2 scoreless innings and had two saves and a win during the four game sweep of the Braves in the World Series. This performance led him to winning the World Series MVP trophy becoming only the third reliever to ever win the award. Along with his World Series MVP award, Rivera is one of the games most dominant pitchers in the postseason, relief or otherwise. He is the all time leader in World Series saves with 9 and postseason saves with 30. He is 5th all time in postseason ERA with .75 even though he has pitched triple the innings of anyone else in the top nine. He is 10th in World Series ERA with 1.16, he is first in postseason appearances, and second in World Series appearances. He set the major league record in 2000 by pitching 33 1/3 scoreless innings in the playoffs. He also holds the record for lowest ERA in post season history with a .75 which includes having a ERA of 0.00 in 14 series and a stretch of 7 straight series. His dominance at the mound was one of the key factors in the Yankees winning not only the 1999 World Series but the 96, 98 and 2000 as well.


SSigman picked: Lee Smith

Choosing the greatest closer in baseball history can be very controversial because of the era the closer pitched in. The save stat only came into effect in 1969, which leaves out more than 60 years of baseball pitchers. The blown save stat came into effect in 1998(baseball-almanac.com) leaving only recent closers to be affected. No closer has ever been so dominant that they can be called the greatest closer of all time. Pitchers like Mariano Rivera, Eric Gagne and Dennis Eckersley all put up a strong case for greatest closer of all time, but my nod goes to Lee Smith. Not usually thought of as the greatest closer of all time, you have to look at the durability and presence he brought to the teams he pitched for. The 1980’s was a time where closers meant you pitched 2 and maybe 3 innings. An imposing figure at 6 foot 6, Smith who played on consistently poor teams performed every year putting his team in good chances to win.



Lee Smith put up the most career saves at 478, had 9 seasons with 30+ saves and 12 straight seasons with over 25+ saves in a time where relievers were expected to pitch more than 1 inning. In fact, Smith had over 1200+ innings pitched in his career, with only 6 of those games coming as a starter. He was the relief pitcher of the year 3 times and an All-Star 7 times. Smith’s best years were 1991-1993 when he was in his mid 30’s, another testament to his durability. His 15 saves in one month is also a record.


Dmon's Rebuttal:

There is no taking away from what Lee Smith has done in his career, and yes his 478 saves in 18 seasons is still tops in the league. However, Smith in his 18 year career has not done what Rivera has going into his 11th. First Smith was traded 4 times and was a free agent 4 times while playing for 8 teams. Now do these things have anything to do with a player being considered the best closer of all time. No not really, but here’s some food for thought, if Smith really is the best, then why would he get bounced around so much in his career, while Rivera has been with one team going into his 11th season. Oh well anyway lets look at some other facts in comparing the two.



In terms of postseason success alone, Rivera has dominated Smith. When one of Smith’s teams was somehow able to make it to the playoffs he buckled under the pressure which is obvious with his 8.44 ERA and two postseason losses. While Rivera, is a World Series MVP and has almost every postseason pitching record including 33 1/3 scoreless innings, and a .75 ERA just to name a few.



Smith 7 time all-star

Rivera 6 time all-star



Smith 3 Time relief pitcher of the year

Rivera 3 time relief pitcher of the year



Most Saves

Smith 46

Rivera 53



And please note that with Rivera there is always a chance that he can outdo himself somewhere down the line.



Lets compare the two’s best statistical seasons. Since they are both relief pitchers I’ll consider for my purposes their best seasons to be when they had their highest save total.


YEAR TEAM W L G GF SV IP H R ER HR BB SO HBP WP BFP
ERA
1991 STL 6 5 67 61 47 73 70 19 19 5 13 67 0 1
2.34
2004 NYY 4 2 74 69 53 78.7 65 17 17 3 20 66 5 0
1.94







So in comparing there best seasons what do we see, smith has 2 more wins, but 3 more losses, in 7 less games. Mariano finished more games then Smith played yet he gave up less hits, less runs, less earned runs, and less home runs all while having a better ERA and facing more batters while pitching more innings. Now that was a pretty long sentence, but the gist of it is this, at their best, and please remember that Mariano still has many seasons left to play so this is just his best to date, Rivera outdoes Smith in the majority of the key statistics. He is a better pitcher, a better closer, and he is the best closer ever.



Why not throw in afew other numbers to further state my point not even in his best season did Smith put up 50 saves or more while Rivera is one of only two in major league history to do it twice.

Smith has only had an era under 2.00 twice in his career compared to Rivera’s 5.



Ok, but we still have the issue of Smith 478 career saves. So deal with it with a hypothetical situation, if Rivera were to only get 25 saves a year he would break Smith’s record a few games into his 16th season, bating out Smith by two seasons. Of, course these are all hypothetical especially considering that Rivera’s lowest total since his first two years in the league has been 28 saves.



And I guess I’ll end with this. I’m not exactly sure how many pitches Lee Smith had in his arsenal, but I know that Rivera has all of two!. Two! With just two pitches Rivera has put up amazing numbers and helped his team win numerous games including the World Series on 4 separate occasions.. And even though Rivera only stands at 6’2, compared to Smith’s 6’6, he is just as intimidating to batters who actually know what’s coming at them. Check out this article from espn which shows how feared his pitch is.



OK, you're back at home plate at Yankee Stadium. You're watching Rivera lurch into his delivery. You know what's coming.

Did you bring a referral for an orthopedic specialist? Or should we just rush your bat to the emergency room?

"You know it's coming hard," says Blue Jays pitcher Dan Plesac. "But you have no idea if it's moving straight -- or eating up your thumbs."

"It runs in on left-handed hitters," says the Twins' Denny Hocking. "And if you swing at it, there is a chance you will lose a finger."

Rivera's cutter comes at you at 95 mph, as fast as a four-seam fastball. And once in a while, that pitch heading your way turns out to be a four-seam fastball. But it's probably going to explode into destructive cutter mode -- boring in on the hands of left-handed hitters, scaring the equilibrium out of right-handed hitters.

"He's got great accuracy with it, and it's 95 miles an hour -- with cut action," says Phillies catcher Mike Lieberthal. "So you've almost got to say to yourself, 'OK, if it starts at my hip, if it looks like it's going to hit me in the hip, I should swing.'"

Ah, but that's the secret. The brain can tell the body what it should do. But the body says, "Be serious." And by that time, you're out.

And that is why Smith should be out and Rivera should be in for the greatest closer ever.

SSigman's Rebuttal:


It’s really almost impossible to argue that Mariano Rivera isn’t one of the best closers all-time, especially since I’m a Yankees fan, but is Mo really a lock for greatest closer of all-time? He’s the obvious choice from most fans perspective, especially in today’s game. Besides Eric Gagne of late, no one has really stepped up to claim that prize. You can name a few others that are solid, but none of them really compare to those two. Let’s look at Dmon’s argument and see what we can come up with.



“His career ERA is 2.41 and he has won 49 games in his career.” In 1995 and 1996 Mariano was not the closer of the Yankees and in fact, 1995 he was a starter all season and 1996 he was the setup man to John Wetteland. 13 of his 49 wins came in 1995 and 1996 and 5 of his career saves came during that time. Compare that to Lee Smith who had 71 career wins and a career ERA of only 3.03 in 18 seasons. Smith's career ERA of 3.03 was also nearly a full run lower than the league average during his tenure.



“He led the Major Leagues with 53 saves and was tied for fourth in the American League with 74 appearances for his team in 2004.” Mo led the league with 53 saves in 2004, a season that ended in disappointment for the Yanks but that will be discussed later. Also, his 74 appearances in 2004 was 7th in the MLB and he pitched a total of only 78.2 innings that year. 78.2 innings in 74 appearances!!! In 1982, Lee Smith appeared in only 72 games but pitched a total of 117 innings. Lee Smith pitched in an era where closers were not 1 and done and expected to pitch the 8th and 9th innings.



“He is one of only two pitchers in history to record two 50 plus save seasons.” Both seasons he had over 50+ saves, 2001 & 2004, the Yanks went on to lose the World Series and both times he was a main cause of that; 2001 giving up the winning run in game 7 to Luis Gonzalez and in 2004 blowing game 4 and 5 against the Red Sox.



“He is the all time leader in World Series saves with 9 and postseason saves with 30.” The Playoffs were expanded in 1994 to add a wildcard team and another round which increases the chances a save can occur. So since Mariano came into the league he has had more opportunity to get a save than a closer pre-1994 era so I feel the stats do not tell the whole truth in this case. Dmon even says it in his argument, “he is first in postseason appearances, and second in World Series appearances.”



“His dominance at the mound was one of the key factors in the Yankees winning not only the 1999 World Series but the 96, 98 and 2000 as well.” Sure he was a key component but lets not forget the timely hitting, for example, Jim Leyritz’s homerun in game 6 of the 1996 World Series, great pitching from the starters and having one of the deepest bullpens throughout most of the run with Stanton and Nelson.



A few more reasons against Rivera include some stats and some intangibles. Statwise, Rivera has finished 474 career games compared to Smith’s 802. Rivera has pitched 728 career innings in a 10 year career, with 1 coming as a full time starter. The intangibles that lessens Rivera are not just limited to his durability or numerous injuries that have kept him out for long stretches at a time, but he is no longer feared by his major competition and rivals, the Boston Red Sox. The Red Sox have seemed to figure him out and in such a big rivalry as it is, having Mo not effective dampens his stranglehold on being Mr. Automatic. For all of Rivera’s dominance in the postseason, he also has his share of let downs. In 1997 he gave up the game winning run against the Cleveland Indians in the ALDS, in 2001 he gave up the winning run to the Arizona Diamondbacks and last year he blew two clinching games against the Red Sox.

Thoughts everyone?? Who won?? The results will be coming soon!!

[BtownJay]

God, that is close. Dmon made some great points as to why Rivera will be the best ever, but what if his arm falls off in tonights game... would he be the best ever if his career ended tonight? Also, he is right about Rivera having more saves per year, but i also have to wonder how many saves Smith would have had per year if the Cards spent $150 mil on their teams?

Ssig's had some very good points too... but in Smith's case, he had a higher ERA in an era without the "juiced ball". Rivera had to deal with the 50 to 60 homerun a year guys, and Smith had the 30 to 40 home run a year guys. Like in '87, Darryl Strawberry led the NL with 39 homers... think about how many players Rivera had to face who hit much more than that.

Good luck to the judges on this one... Good job to Dmon and Ssig, this was a good battle.

[KP]

Wow...these were two excellent arguements! Great job by both!

[ssigman]

i say this, the juiced ball era is fine and dandy but 39 homeruns in 1987 was a huge number..in fact it was the equivalent of 60 homeruns now....and smith's era was still a run lower than the league average...good point about rivera in the future...what if he goes on to blow every save from tonite on...is he still the greatest....

way to choose the most obvious choice too...its like askin who's the dumbest guy on the site and then picking mike lol

[Dmon3k]

Good point on if he gets injured or blows every save from now on. I'm not really a baseball guy so I just tried to come up with some stats and stuff that would back me up. Can't wait to see who wins though

[Dave M]

ssig did a great job in counterpoint picking apart his opponents argument. Lee Smith has done more on crappy teams than Mo has done playing for the Yankees.

[Shane]

Dmon and Ssig: I just submitted my judgement, and would like to tell you two a few things before the results come in.

OUTSTANDING!!

You guys matched eachother at every step. You took a topic that I literally know nothing about, and 1. made it a pleasure to read, and 2. made me want to learn more about it. That alone is impressive.

The only thing that bothers me about this matchup is that one of you won't be advancing. I have no idea who that will be, but I will be glued to the internet tonight to find out.

[Aveosmth]

The results are in!!!! Give me 5 minutes

[Aveosmth]

Ladies and Gentleman,

After a majority draw, we have to go to a seldom used rule in Point-Counterpoint. This rule states that if there is a draw, then the Judges' scorecards in the Rebuttal round will be tabulated and a winner declared from there.

The winner is: SSigman!!!!!

This was a match for the ages. The judges were very stumped on this one, as both participants gave it their best. This was a super quarterfinal, and I have a feeling that both members will be highly ranked after this competition.

Scorecards:

Judge 1: 47-47 (30-27 SSigman rebuttal round)
Judge 2: 48-46 SSigman (29-28 SSigman rebuttal round)
Judge 3: 48-48 (29-28 SSigman rebuttal round)

Wow!! SSigman survived the point deduction, just barely.

Judges Comments:

SSigman: You came out strong, and got everything done in a minimum of words.

DMon: Very precise opening round. Strong.

SSigman: Ssig, I appreciated the brevity of your article, but you lost some points because you didn't make much of a point there. It had a good intro, and then I was just hanging.....

Rebuttal Round:

DMon: I don't normally like other articles in a rebuttal round where you should be attacking. However, this piece was very entertaining and what you lost in strength you gained in style points.

SSigman: You sure knew exactly where to attack Mariano Rivera, excellent job.

SSigman: While Rivera has a chance to better Smith's numbers over a full career, he also has a chance to get hurt and never approach Smith's career numbers. Also, the fact that Smith had to consistently pitch more than one inning helped Ssigman.

DMon: I really liked that Dmon included a quote from current players, even if one was from a pitcher that doesn't face Rivera. I thought that added perspective to the rebuttal.

SSigman: The number of innings Smith pitched and the type of teams he had to play for have to be considered. The postseason opportunities for Rivera certainly help him. The fact that Rivera has a lower ERA can be attributed to the amount of innings, as Ssig pointed out.

SSigman: Your rebuttal was just brillant!!!

DMon: Your argument made me want to be a Rivera fan. Your rebuttal had a lot of great factors that can help a guy win a round, whether or not it pulled you through is tough to say.

As you can see, this was a great matchup, exactly what this competition is supposed to be. This was a topic that people thought might be a yawner, and it ended up being fascinating. Great job again!!

[Shane]

WOW again.

This could have gone either way. If someone had told me two days ago that Btown and Ssigs were advancing, I would have called bullshit.

The fact is, in this battle alone, you guys kicked ass. Dmon....I could find nothing wrong with what you wrote. Ssig had a damn good rebuttal, and I think that may have been the tiny little difference.

I hope every round in the future is as good as this one. You guys both kicked ass.