Ishkur-Mark C. Quarterfinal Thread - Page 3

mark_chalifoux · November 21st, 2005, 12:54 PM

Jagr played with freaking Mario! It's not like he played with a bunch of stiffs.

How on earth could the plus/minus argument go to Jagr??? Forsberg has NEVER had a negative plus/minus in his entire career! Jagr has had 5 seasons of +5 or less, including TWO seasons with a negative. That is embarassing, what good is a goal if you just let one up right after it?! There is NO EXCUSE ever for a player like Jagr to have a negative +/minus.

Ishkur took a player with ridiculous stats, but he hasnt done JACK in the last four seasons! If Forsberg had played in 500 more games, his stats would DESTROY Jagr's, Forsberg is a better scorer statistically!

Ishkur · November 21st, 2005, 12:59 PM

That's why I said last eight years. The first seven he had Mario.

+/- is a five-man effort, not an individual statistic. I explain this.

You can't judge a man's worth on what he might have done or what you wish he could have done, only on what he has done. Forsberg simply hasn't done enough, and he did it on a ridiculously stacked team.

Did you read my post at all? Pay attention! *whap*

ssigman · November 21st, 2005, 01:33 PM

i agree....jagr can't do it alone so if he scores and a minute later, they give up a goal..its not 100% his fault...his job is to make plays, not stop them....colorado had a much better overall team than pittsburgh so its easier to be on the positive side than the negative side...shit, he had roy for how many years behind him in net...+/- is obsolete in this category.....its the equivalent to WHIP in baseball

mark_chalifoux · November 21st, 2005, 03:00 PM

His job is to stop plays just as much as it is to make them. I know +/- is a 5-man thing, but no one can deny how embarassing Jagr's is. +/- if often used when discussing the top defensive forward in the NHL, and its the best stat to compare defensive effort. Jagr is a TERRIBLE forechecker and even if he was an offensive genius, he should have the puck buried in the other team's end when he's on the ice- there is no excuse to have FIVE seasons under This category isn't the best scorer, or it would be jagr hands down, but Forsberg has been a consensus top 5 player in the league by hockey news every year he has been in the league, EVERY SINGLE ONE- which is something Jagr can't say.

But if you just want to base this SOLELY on scoring stats in the NHL fine, Forsberg doesn't match up.

Ishkur · November 21st, 2005, 03:13 PM

Mark, if +/- is the only thing you can drum up as proof of Forsberg's proficiency, then maybe there's more at stake here than just your pride. In other words, you are reaching, Mark. You are reaching reaaaaaally hard.

Jagr has gotten more done, with less help, over a more consistent period of time. You can't call someone who up and quits in the middle of his career because the game won't treat him with the respect he feels he rightfully deserves (up to and including rolling out the red carpet when he goes into the offensive zone) anything other than a crybaby quitter. Whiniest ever, yes. Best ever? No.

(they are #1 and #2 in scoring right now, though Jagr has three times more goals. I imagine the bulk of Forsberg's assists were of the "oh no, I'm about to get hit! Quick, throw the puck over to Gagne" variety. This year is going to be interesting!)

Quote:

But if you just want to base this SOLELY on scoring stats in the NHL fine, Forsberg doesn't match up.

I love this line. They are FORWARDS. That's what they're supposed to do: score. Especially if they are on the power play. If you don't want to count scoring statistics, you should have picked a defencemen or goalie or somebody who's job is not to score. It's like the line one analyst gave of Kurt Warner when St. Louis was on its Superbowl run: "He's not a very good quarterback. All he does is throw touchdowns."

BtownJay · November 21st, 2005, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ishkur

(they are #1 and #2 in scoring right now, though Jagr has three times more goals. I imagine the bulk of Forsberg's assists were of the "oh no, I'm about to get hit! Quick, throw the puck over to Gagne" variety. This year is going to be interesting!)

LOL! This i can say is 100% not the case. Forsberg has been very good on both ends of the ice and really throwing his body around. He has been beating people off with the puck before making AMAZING passes to Gagne. There has been NOTHING soft at all about Forsberg this season. I admit to not seeing much of Peter before this year, but so far, this season, he has been a stud.

Ishkur · November 21st, 2005, 03:49 PM

I concur (that was a joke), EVERYBODY is being a stud this year. Hasek is back. Jagr is back. Bertuzzi is back. The rookies have something to prove. The veterans have something to prove further still. The year off, plus the rule changes, has invigorated the entire league. Everyone is going for broke now. Perhaps in the future we may look back on the lockout as the best thing that ever happened for hockey. What it did, more than anything else, was make everybody hungry again. In the past, so many of them felt tired, disgruntled, beaten down, or just flat-out indifferent. It made for boring, sloppy, and the type of hockey that convinced fans to demand their money back. This year they are all playing amazingly well. It's almost like they want to make up for it, so they are putting the equivalent of two years worth of excitement into one.

That still doesn't make up for the fact that Forsberg has spent 2/3 of his career flopping around. He's such a legend at it, he's made it art. There are websites devoted to his brand of pussyfooting hockey.

NICKinDALLAS · November 21st, 2005, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BtownJay

He has been beating people off with the puck

This sounds painful and completely irrelevant!

mark_chalifoux · November 21st, 2005, 10:32 PM

why would people have a problem with my argument because I called Jagr a pussy, but then Ishkur spent half the rebuttal calling forsberg a flopper. Has he ever been called for it?? Once?? At the end of the day, Jagr still is a bigger pussy.

As far as the plus minus goes, its the best way to show Forsberg's affect on the defensive side of the game. He is a great forechecker and is one of the best in transition. I know they are forwards, but that's bullshit that you should win just because your guy has more points- there is more to it than that.

I agree on the lockout, I've been amazed with some of the crowds I've seen this season too. I know Columbus (even thoug they suck) had something like a 98% renewal of their past season ticket holders

Shane · November 21st, 2005, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NICKinDALLAS

This sounds painful and completely irrelevant!

I agree! I'd like to know what Jay was REALLY thinking when he wrote that. Or maybe I don't?

Ishkur · November 21st, 2005, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark_chalifoux

why would people have a problem with my argument because I called Jagr a pussy, but then Ishkur spent half the rebuttal calling forsberg a flopper. Has he ever been called for it?? Once?? At the end of the day, Jagr still is a bigger pussy.

I proved it. You did not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark_chalifoux

As far as the plus minus goes, its the best way to show Forsberg's affect on the defensive side of the game. He is a great forechecker and is one of the best in transition. I know they are forwards, but that's bullshit that you should win just because your guy has more points- there is more to it than that.

Actually, blocked shots, steals, dump-ins, hits, fights, penalty killing, faceoffs are all stats used to gauge defensive hockey. None of them Forsberg is in considerable contention for.

There was a big stink in the NHL a couple years ago when they were thinking of dumping some of those categories, and the outcry for the NHLPA was enourmous. For energy players like Darren McCarty and Matt Cooke, and pests like Sean Avery, and other perennial third and fourth-liners whose job is to stifle the other team's top line or to stay out there long enough to give the big guns some rest, those stats are their bread and butter. It's what they use to renegotiate their contracts.

The NHL wisely restored those stats after a few months.

And Jagr has more than just points. He has more heart, commitment, and focus. It's often been said that of all the European nations, Czech hockey players are the ones that play the most Canadian. They play stingey, tough, and with heart and grit. Forsberg would rule in a National Ice Ballet League, which is why he retreats to Modo every few years.

Shane · November 21st, 2005, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ishkur

It's often been said that of all the European nations, Czech hockey players are the ones that play the most Canadian.

I resent that. It is un-American.

Ishkur · November 21st, 2005, 11:23 PM

That's why I said all EUROPEAN nations.

Seriously now.

November 21st, 2005, 12:54 PM	#31
mark_chalifoux Join Date: 07-02-2004 Posts: 305	Jagr played with freaking Mario! It's not like he played with a bunch of stiffs. How on earth could the plus/minus argument go to Jagr??? Forsberg has NEVER had a negative plus/minus in his entire career! Jagr has had 5 seasons of +5 or less, including TWO seasons with a negative. That is embarassing, what good is a goal if you just let one up right after it?! There is NO EXCUSE ever for a player like Jagr to have a negative +/minus. Ishkur took a player with ridiculous stats, but he hasnt done JACK in the last four seasons! If Forsberg had played in 500 more games, his stats would DESTROY Jagr's, Forsberg is a better scorer statistically!

November 21st, 2005, 12:59 PM	#32
Ishkur Join Date: 12-27-2003 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 438	That's why I said last eight years. The first seven he had Mario. +/- is a five-man effort, not an individual statistic. I explain this. You can't judge a man's worth on what he might have done or what you wish he could have done, only on what he has done. Forsberg simply hasn't done enough, and he did it on a ridiculously stacked team. Did you read my post at all? Pay attention! whap

November 21st, 2005, 01:33 PM	#33
ssigman Join Date: 03-15-2004 Posts: 27,970	i agree....jagr can't do it alone so if he scores and a minute later, they give up a goal..its not 100% his fault...his job is to make plays, not stop them....colorado had a much better overall team than pittsburgh so its easier to be on the positive side than the negative side...shit, he had roy for how many years behind him in net...+/- is obsolete in this category.....its the equivalent to WHIP in baseball

November 21st, 2005, 03:00 PM	#34
mark_chalifoux Join Date: 07-02-2004 Posts: 305	His job is to stop plays just as much as it is to make them. I know +/- is a 5-man thing, but no one can deny how embarassing Jagr's is. +/- if often used when discussing the top defensive forward in the NHL, and its the best stat to compare defensive effort. Jagr is a TERRIBLE forechecker and even if he was an offensive genius, he should have the puck buried in the other team's end when he's on the ice- there is no excuse to have FIVE seasons under This category isn't the best scorer, or it would be jagr hands down, but Forsberg has been a consensus top 5 player in the league by hockey news every year he has been in the league, EVERY SINGLE ONE- which is something Jagr can't say. But if you just want to base this SOLELY on scoring stats in the NHL fine, Forsberg doesn't match up.

November 21st, 2005, 03:49 PM	#37
Ishkur Join Date: 12-27-2003 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 438	I concur (that was a joke), EVERYBODY is being a stud this year. Hasek is back. Jagr is back. Bertuzzi is back. The rookies have something to prove. The veterans have something to prove further still. The year off, plus the rule changes, has invigorated the entire league. Everyone is going for broke now. Perhaps in the future we may look back on the lockout as the best thing that ever happened for hockey. What it did, more than anything else, was make everybody hungry again. In the past, so many of them felt tired, disgruntled, beaten down, or just flat-out indifferent. It made for boring, sloppy, and the type of hockey that convinced fans to demand their money back. This year they are all playing amazingly well. It's almost like they want to make up for it, so they are putting the equivalent of two years worth of excitement into one. That still doesn't make up for the fact that Forsberg has spent 2/3 of his career flopping around. He's such a legend at it, he's made it art. There are websites devoted to his brand of pussyfooting hockey.

November 21st, 2005, 10:32 PM	#39
mark_chalifoux Join Date: 07-02-2004 Posts: 305	why would people have a problem with my argument because I called Jagr a pussy, but then Ishkur spent half the rebuttal calling forsberg a flopper. Has he ever been called for it?? Once?? At the end of the day, Jagr still is a bigger pussy. As far as the plus minus goes, its the best way to show Forsberg's affect on the defensive side of the game. He is a great forechecker and is one of the best in transition. I know they are forwards, but that's bullshit that you should win just because your guy has more points- there is more to it than that. I agree on the lockout, I've been amazed with some of the crowds I've seen this season too. I know Columbus (even thoug they suck) had something like a 98% renewal of their past season ticket holders

November 21st, 2005, 11:23 PM	#43
Ishkur Join Date: 12-27-2003 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 438	That's why I said all EUROPEAN nations. Seriously now.