SSigman-Gunnerman Quarterfinal Thread

[Shane]

Their topic was: Which world cup team (year/country) was the best of all-time?

SSigs chose 1986 Argentina/Gunner chose 1974 West Germany

Here is Ssigs article round:

Being born in 1978, the youngest of three boys and a soccer playing father, it didn’t take long before I was kicking the ball around. Age 4, I started my path to professional soccer stardom. It wasn’t until 1986, that a boy of 8 realized how grand this game was while he watched the television and saw 115,000 people watch one single game between two countries he knew nothing about. Argentina defeated West Germany that day 3-2, led by one of the greatest soccer players in the history of the game, Diego Maradonna. My choice for greatest World Cup team is the 1986 Argentina National Team. I chose Argentina 1986 because I feel I can not pick a team I never saw play and just read about. If you talk to any knowledgeable soccer fan and ask them to name the two greatest players in the history of the game and the answers that will be given the most will be Pele and Diego Maradonna. To help understand how these two are regarded, think Pele as Babe Ruth and Maradonna as Hank Aaron. Since Pele was before my time, I couldn’t pick a team he was on. (Although I do suggest you pick up his autobiography and catch some clips of his playing days) In fact, an internet vote in 2002 had Maradonna as the Player of the Century, later changed to a tie with Pele(most likely due to Maradonna’s image) Also, if you ask what two plays stand out about these players and they’ll name Pele’s bicycle kick and Maradonna’s “Hand of God” goal.
The 1982 World Cup finals showdown was between Italy and West Germany, a game won by Italy. The reason I bring this up is to show that these two teams were the top two teams in the world coming into the 1986 World Cup.
The 1986 World Cup was filled with star studded players, men who went from stars to legends. Names such as Rudy Voller and Lothar Matthaus(West Germany), Michel Platini(France), Gary Linker, Peter Beardsley, Peter Shilton(England), Hugo Sanchez(Mexico) and Walter Zenga(Italy) among many others lined the field like no other World Cup in the past. In 1986, Argentina led by Maradonna(5 goals), Valdano(4 goals), and Burrachaga(2 goals and the winning goal in the finals) won there group that included the defending champions Italy. The quarterfinals pitted Argentina versus England, a tough game for political(Falkan Island war) and soccer reasons, the game will be remembered for two plays that crushed one nation even today and led another one to a World Cup victory. A controversial play where a head ball was clearly knocked in by Maradonna’s hand and despite the cries of the English, the referee allowed the play to stand.(see pics) That goal might have given them the lead and a play that will be remembered forever, but the next goal by Maradonna was even more spectacular as he ran half the length of the pitch and dribbled the ball past almost every member of the English team before scoring. This goal was voted the best goal ever in the history of the World Cup by a FIFA poll in 2002.
In the finals, Argentina matched up against West Germany, who lost in 1982 and will go on to win it in 1990 in front of 100,000+ fans in the country right below us, Mexico,
Argentina went on to a winning a stunning match 3-2 after blowing a 2-0 lead.
After this World Cup and the dominating performance by Diego Maradonna, the U.S. soccer revolution began. For the first time since 1950, the U.S. made the 1990 World Cup and every cup since. We have become a powerful player in this sport, even hosting the 1994 World Cup. Without Argentina 1986 and Diego Maradonna, The U.S. might continue to be in soccer obscurity and my oldest brother never would’ve wore his Argentina jersey in England 1988 to a 5game between and English youth team and an American all-star team, starring my other older brother.

Here is Gunner's Article Round:

My choice would be West Germany 1974 as the greatest World Cup team.

The first reason is always centered on the players. Star power counts
and it counts for a great deal. The West German side were led by
perhaps the greatest footballer of the 1970s, Franz Beckenbauer AKA Der
Kaiser. He exemplified what a devastating role a sweeper could be if he
was willing to play behind and in front of the defenders. He snuffed out
attacks and contributed to the side through creating and scoring goals.
The second great star of the team was Der Bomber, striker Gerd Muller.
Muller was the classic fox in the box at knocking in goals from inside
the penalty area. A nice side note is that Muller is the all-time
leading FIFA World Cup scorer with 14 goals. The third great star of this
team was the goalkeeper, Sepp Maier. He was nicknamed “Die Katze” for
his cat like quickness at making remarkable saves. During the 1974
World Cup Maier kept four out of seven clean sheets.

As well as having star power the Germans had resilience. True, the
West Germans were the defending European Champions but their preliminary
results were not overly impressive. In fact, the West Germans finished
the Group stage with an embarrassing loss to political rivals East
Germany, 1-0 in Munich. Here is where the resilience of the West Germans
came into play. West German manager Helmut Schon was able to take the
input from the squad to get the Germans ready for the final stage of the
tournament. The emergency meeting was the brainchild of Beckenbauer
who then went on national television to explain the crisis had passed.

The last reason that the Germans are the greatest World Cup team is
because of the final game. The West Germans faced the Netherlands. This
is the same Dutch team that gave the world the term “Total Football.”
This was a system that allowed players great freedom of movement and
was very much an attacking style of play. The Dutch were loaded with
stars, many of them from the club side Ajax who had won three consecutive
European Champions Cups in the early seventies, the most famous player
of course was Johann Cruyff. The Dutch took the early lead on a
Neeskens in the first minute and everything seemed to be going the Dutch way.
The Germans though dug in and minimized the Dutch threats and Gerd
Muller scored the World Cup winning goal giving the West Germans the title.

SSigs Rebuttal:


Ladies and Gentleman of the Rant, I would like to start out by saying I believe my opponent is intentionally throwing this first round by choosing the 1974 West Germany national team. Gunnerman has been a great addition to the site, adding his extensive knowledge of soccer to all the members, but choosing 1974 West Germany is a travesty and I will explain why.
Let’s break down his article section by section. His first point is about how the World Cup is about the players. The 1974 World Cup had 2 star players and 1 quality striker; Franz Beckenbauer, Gerd Muller(who’s 4 goals fell short of the leader, Grzegorz Lato with 7 goals) and Johann Cruyff(Arguably the best player at the tournament). As I stated in my first article, the 1986 World Cup was filled with star players such as Matthaus, Platini, Sanchez and Voller. The main star of that World Cup was Diego Maradonna, #1 on the all-time player of the century poll. I’m sure my opponent will bring up things in his personal life that make him look like a bad person, but on the pitch (soccer field) the man was simply amazing. A quote from Planetworldcup.com sums up my point.
“Luck was not on England's side either when the
referee ignored the handball goal scored by the
man the 1986 World Cup has become synonymous
with: Diego Armando Maradona. Never has one man
dominated an entire tournament such as Maradona in
1986. Coach Bilardo built his whole team around this
stocky figure who was determined to redeem himself
after Spain '82. His solo-goal against England brought
back memories of what football used to be like among
kids in the streets and parks ages ago. One player
running circles around others. Maradona did this in the
World Cup knock-out stage in the most high-profile games.
Argentina won a well-deserved title after a classic final
against West Germany.
But 1986 was all about Maradona.”
Gunnerman practically says it himself that West Germany wasn’t the best team in the tournament. How can a team who wasn’t even the best, despite winning, be considered the greatest of all time. In fact, powerhouse teams like England, France, Spain and Hungary failed to even qualify for the tournament and defending champions Italy failed to make it to the second round. Only 16 teams competed from the onset, compared to 24 teams in 1986. This tournament was diluted from the get go. A true test of greatness is a team who plays the best and still wins and West Germany failed that test. Argentina on the other hand had to go through defending champion Italy, the second place finishers from 1982 West Germany and powerhouse teams like Belgium, England, Brazil, Spain and France and after all was said and done; their overall record was 6 wins and 1 draw (a tie against Italy). Gunnerman states West Germany lost to rivals East Germany. East Germany was a team making its first trip to the World Cup (side note: world cup play started in 1930 and happens every 4 years). Not much of a rivalry on the grandest stage in soccer if you ask me, and to top it off, they lost to East Germany.
In conclusion, World Cup’s are remembered for great goals, great players and great teams. In 1986, Argentina had all three aspects working for them. Win, lose or draw, it was just good to finally have a soccer topic in P/CP.

Gunner's Rebuttal:


So it has come down to Argentina 1986 versus West Germany 1974. I read my adversary’s article with great interest. Why? Well, because I was quite surprised he did not choose one of the Brazilian teams. I think this is one feeling we have in common because I also did not choose a Brazilian side.

Obviously this debate comes down on the surface to the two best players of the 1970s and the 1980s. Franz Beckenbauer and Diego Maradonna. My worthy opponent espouses the wonderful achievements of Maradonna during the 1986 World Cup and I cannot argue that at that time in the soccer world that Maradonna was the best player in the world. However, in the 1970s there was no one better than Der Kaiser, Franz Beckenbauer. These two players were different. Maradonna was a player whose reputation was built upon his own greatness, his own talent. Beckenbauer while possessing tremendous skill and talent did not flaunt it for his own purpose, he used his talent more so to make his team a great team. So what set these two World Cup Champions apart? That is the vital question.

I like how my opponent stated in his opening argument “I chose Argentina 1986 because I feel I can not pick a team I never saw play and just read about.� I respect that statement it rings true. The first World Cup I watched on TV was in 1966 so for me to consider any team prior to that would not ring with the same emotion. However I do take issue with the comparison of Pele and Maradonna where he says “If you talk to any knowledgeable soccer fan and ask them name the two greatest players in the history of the game and the answers that will be given the most will be Pele and Diego Maradonna.� For this issue I will bring back those heady days of the North American Soccer League (NASL). The mid to late 1970s were the only time in the USA when investment in soccer rivaled the likes of baseball and football. Every American sports fan born after 1985 is familiar with the fact that Pele signed with the New York Cosmos. But, it wasn’t until the Cosmos signed Beckenbauer that they became truly dominant. This does not hold a great deal as far as the present argument but, it proves the point that Beckenbauer was the MOST dominant player in his day. Add to that Beckenbauer went on to coach his national team and was instrumental in bringing the World Cup Final to Germany in 2006 it can be seen that his leadership qualities have not dulled since those days of the 1974 World Cup final. In contrast we have Maradonna who was banned from USA 1994 for snorting cocaine, hangs out with Cuban dictators for fun and likes to be shown swilling beers while watching his former club team in Argentina, Boca Juniors. I will not deny Maradonna’s great talent but, I will never name him as one the two greatest players ever. Pele and Beckenbauer are reserved for that honor.

Political situations are also, alas, a part of any World Cup. So, which country faced the greater political crisis during their World Cup? True, Argentina and England were having their little tiff over the Falkland Islands. And even to this day soccer relations between these nations are heated to say the least. But the West German side of ‘74 faced true political adversity, failed, and then rebounded to gain true immortality in the minds of the greater footballing world. It was the time of the cold war, communism versus freedom. A much larger picture than some tiny group of islands in the Southern hemisphere. The West Germans lost to the East Germans in their final group game. The World was turned upside down! True the West Germans had already qualified for the final stage but the uproar placed pressure of an enormous extent on the West Germans as the finals were being held in West Germany. The TV appearance by one Franz Beckenbauer quelled many a beating heart to help not only the team but the entire nation. Then the West Germans defeated Poland (one of the most talented Iron Curtain Teams) in the finals group stage to earn an entry to the final.

Stars, great teams are defined by stars as I said in my earlier argument. The West German side not only had stars that contributed to the finals victory but they also made contributions after their playing days. I have already mentioned the contributions of Franz Beckenbauer, we cannot forget that defender Bertie Voigts went on to be a successful coach in professional and international soccer. Gerd Muller is still the man who holds the record for most goals scored in World Cup finals. He was a striker who fit in well with the German system which built through efficiency rather than individual flare. Service was vital for Muller to perform his brilliance, The goalkeeping was also stellar as provided by Sepp Maier. One of the greatest keepers to come out of Germany Maier kept his team in the finals during the 1974 final so that they could ultimately collect the cup.

The last argument that holds merit is the opponent. As I stated in my opening argument, the West German side of 1974 defeated a country that at the time was considered the most talented in the world. The West Germans defeated Holland. They defeated the innovators of “Total Football�. They defeated the team with the greatest player never to win the World Cup Johann Cruyff. Johann Cruyff is one of the few players ever to have a move named after him, the Cruyff turn, this move was invented by him to deceive the defender therefore creating space for a cross or a shot. By the time 1986 rolled around, the “best� soccer to played outside of South America was considered to be overly defensive in style. In the 1970s the West Germans defeated a style that relied on players overlapping and covering and attacking for one another, “Total Football.� This style was on display in the 1974 final as the Dutch got an early penalty which Johann Neeskens converted. But, the cool German efficiency saw the day through, eventually Gerd Muller scored the winner, his last goal in the finals and proved to the world that the West German game of 1974 was efficient, calm, and attacking when the situation called for it. The Argentine team of 1986 faced no such difficulty in their assent to the World Cup. True they beat a West German team in the final but I would say that had that German team had the men of 1974 the Argentines would have gone home empty handed whilst the Germans would have lifted the trophy secure in the knowledge that they truly were the best TEAM in the world.

[ssigman]

your gonna bring up a move that can be done by anyone here after 3 seconds of learning?? very interesting...lol

also, did i read the rebuttal part wrong? was this an article about what they did outside of soccer and not in 1974 world cup play...cause i think gerd muller's father was a nazi and sepp maier's 2nd cousin was hitler

[ssigman]

and i knew you'd bring up maradonna's personal life....the fact remains, on the field, he was equal to pele..both whom are above beckenbauer...

[KP]

I sent my results to Avery for this topic.

Working on the other ones....

[ssigman]

now that you judged mine....COULD IT OF TAKEN YOU ANY LONGER?
ha

[KP]

I know, I know, I know....I waaay behind.

I don't have the finanacial resources of the Rant Daddy. I have to take care of my own yard and clean my own house. I can't afford to have a "lawn boy" & a maid!

[ssigman]

true true...maybe he could send them over since your doing a service for the rant

[Gunnerman]

3 seconds of learning my arse! ROFL!