Btown-SSigman Semifinal Thread

[ssigman]

my rebuttal isn't great..i threw it together to get it done

[Shane]

The topic was "Should Pete Rose be in the Hall of Fame"?

Here is Jay's article....

Pete Rose in the hall?

Well at this point the time has passed that he cannot be allowed into the hall anymore and I think that is a very good thing. Rose should NOT be allowed into the hall anyhow, anyway. What he did completely undermines the integrity of the game. But maybe integrity doesn't mean anything to the people who feel he should be in the Hall. Maybe people who don't care about the sport will want him in. The Hall of Fame should be exactly what its name says... highlight the Fame of the sport. How can someone who bets on the sport and HIS TEAM be named as one of the highlights of a league. How would that make the league look? Reward the person for betting on the sport while he's still in the sport? That simply makes no sense at all.

People always ask the question, "but what does his gambling on the sport or on your team hurt? It's not like he bet against his team and hurt them". Just because he didn't try to make the team lose to win his bet doesn't mean he couldn't have been hurting them. If you bet on your team to win, wouldn't you do anything you could to make your team win. Wouldn't you play your star player even if he was a little banged up and could use some time off? Wouldn't you leave your star pitcher in the game longer than he should because he is your best option to win? Couldn't this have an affect on the team for the long term?

Now lets say Rose gets in trouble with the bookies because he's in a big hole. He owes them a ton of money. How can he get out of this situation? Wouldn't he now have the opportunity to give bookies inside information on his team so that they can go out and bet for or against his team?

Do you want to set the "bar" by telling the fans, players and everyone in baseball that you can still get into the hall of fame if you bet on the sport? He still gets to keep all of his awards, and all of his numbers. He is not 'erased' from record books, he's just not allowed in the hall. That seems to be a fitting punishment for doing something so bad against the league. It is not as if he didn't know it was against the rules.



And Ssig's rebuttal....

Integrity; in a sport filled with overpriced players who sit out of games for minor injuries, while other athletes in different sports play with much more serious injuries. Guys who cry because they don’t want to play a different position or because they only have 299 at bats and need 300 for a 35 million dollar bonus. Players who take steroids to enhance their performance and leadership who overlooked it for years because it was putting fans in the seats, making government get involved! This is the argument you want to use to keep Pete Rose out of the Hall of Fame. If it didn’t take all of us 8 months to do this round, I’d say we should start over so you can re-think your stance.



You say and I quote, “The Hall of Fame should be exactly what its name says... highlight the Fame of the sport.” All-Star game 1970, Pete Rose defined highlighting the sport by hustling around third base and plowing into the catcher at home; in an all star-game. Today’s players would never think to do that because they don’t want to hurt themselves or the other all-star or even get bad press. They are making baseball a mockery of a sport. You want highlighting the game; you look at how Pete Rose played the game during his career, not his actions outside the game.



How many Americans gamble? How many athletes have had issues with

gambling? How many do we know about? Not know about? Michael Jordan, basketball’s greatest player; admitted gambling problem. Did he bet on basketball? I have no idea, he won’t admit it and unless we do serious undercover work, we’ll never know.



Let’s answer your questions. “Wouldn't you play your star player even if he was a little banged up and could use some time off? Yes, you would because as a manager, you’re trying to win. In football, every player is a little banged up, yet they still play, so why shouldn’t a baseball player get into the game when he’s a little banged up. “Wouldn't you leave your star pitcher in the game longer than he should because he is your best option to win?” Yes, if the pitcher is doing well and he’s your best option to win, of course you’ll stick with him and give him the chance to end it for your team. If might have been the wrong move, but Grady Little left Pedro in against the Yankees in the playoffs. Asked why he did that, he said, he felt Pedro has some stuff left and he was the best option in his opinion to win the game.

“Couldn't this have an affect on the team for the long term?” Every time a player plays, it could affect the team in the long run due to injuries or an error that costs them the game.



“It is not as if he didn't know it was against the rules.” So everyone that does something against the rules should not be let in the HOF? Rafael Palmeiro, goodbye…banned from baseball forever. All the players who were caught already, goodbye…banned from baseball forever. Watch your back Mark McGwire; possibly say goodbye to your chances Barry Bonds, everyone who was ever involved in an on-field brawl…goodbye, it’s against the rules…banned from baseball. Randall Simon, pack your bags, you hit the person in the mascot race in Milwaukee…banned from baseball.

[Shane]

Here is Ssig's article....

Baseball, America’s past time, watched and loved by many. A game where millions of dollars are earned, players are adored by fans and looked at to guide their children’s lives. Like the famous wrestler once said, “Men wanna be and women wanna be with me.” Grown men trying to meet their hero’s and get pictures and autographs and women throwing themselves sexually at a moment’s notice. It’s a life most of us wished we had, but there are downsides to this lifestyle. I know my opponent’s argument before I even read his article. You see, the only argument against Pete Rose going into the Hall of Fame is that he gambled on baseball. I’ll save that argument for the rebuttal and show why Pete Rose, the baseball player and manager, belongs in the Hall of Fame.

The 1940 Cincinnati Reds won the World Series, 23 years before Pete Rose entered the Majors. In the years after 1940 and leading up to 1963, the Reds were a team under .500 fourteen times. After Pete Rose began his career with the Reds (1963-1978), they were under .500 two times. In the years he played in Cincinnati, they won 4 NLCS titles and 2 World Series. He was the “component” to the Big Red Machine.

In 1978, he was granted free agency and left for the Philadelphia Phillies. He played in Philadelphia from 1978 to 1984. In that span of time, the Phillies won the World Series in 1980, the Division in 1981(strike year) and won the NLCS in 1983. After the 1983 season, he was released by the Phillies at age 42. Picked up by the Expos in 1984 and after 95 games was traded back to his original team, the Cincinnati Reds. That year he was named player/manager and held that title from 1984-1986 until he retired. His managerial record during that time was 194-170. His overall managerial stint lasted until 1989 finishing with a record of 412-313.

Rose is known for his ability with the bat, but only a few realize how well versed he was on the field. He played 1B, 2B, 3B and outfield. Well you might say, a lot of guys do that! True, but Rose played 1,327 games in OF, 939 at 1B, 634 at 2B and 628 at 3B. Do the math and you’ll see he played quite a few years at each position. “How well did he play at those positions,” asks David Ortiz, member of the DH’s against position players club. Glad you asked David because his fielding percentages at those positions respectively were .991, .994, .961 and .975.

Finally, I’m going to rattle off statistics, that I’m sure my opponent will say anyone can do, but these numbers show as a baseball player, Pete Rose 100% belongs in the HOF. He was the 1963 NL ROY, the 1973 NL MVP(10 times voted in the top 10), 1975 WS MVP, 2 time Gold Glove winner, lowest amount of games played in one season was 107 in 1981(strike year). He was also in the top 10 games played in a season 15 times in his career. He was durable, played tough and loved the game. On September 11, 1985 Pete Rose got hit number 4,192 passing Ty Cobb’s 57 year old record. He finished his career 4,256 hits. Besides Cobb, the next closest players are Hank Aaron at 3,771, Stan Musial at 3,630 and Tris Speaker. To compare this feat, I took Ichiro Suzuki’s numbers, a man who has 200+ hits in each of his first 5 years equaling 1130 hits. He would need 3,126 more hits to tie Pete Rose. He would have to have over 15 ½ straight years of 200 hits to match Rose’s numbers.





And Jay's rebuttal....

Yawn… Sorry just got done reading the most boring stat filled article in my life. He is also very smart and set that whole article up so I had nothing to argue against. All he talked about were his stats, the stats any person could pull from anywhere.


My opponent is talking about all of these big numbers and pretty awards that Pete Rose has put up and won. We get it, Rose was a very good baseball player. Congratulations for proving the obvious. But what do those numbers mean? Should we overlook what he did to disgrace the game simply because he was a good player? If you think that, then you should be okay with players getting away with murder *cough* OJ *cough* because he could run with a ball better than 99% of the world. (I understand murder is worse than betting on your team, just an example about players getting away with things because they are who they are.)



I will even agree with my opponent and say that Pete’s numbers are Hall of Fame worthy. And this argument is a tough one because it all comes down to personal beliefs and feelings. Are we as a society, and Major League Baseball supposed to look the other way at what he did just because he was a very good player? I don’t think any league in the world should do this. Do not send the message that it is okay to hurt the integrity of the sport and still be allowed to be put on a pedestal. Who cares that he bet on his own team. Who cares that he had the potential to hurt his players, the fans and the team. Pete has some pretty numbers and trophies… lets just make him president.

The judges have these, results should be in soon.

[BtownJay]

See Sig, this wasn't even close. I had nothing to argue against. Congrats, and good luck vs. Mark!

[Rusty27]

One thing I think you have going for you Jay.
Ssig is basically saying because integrity is lacking in society and sports in general,it should also be discounted when it comes to Hall of Fame voting.I don't believe this is sound reasoning.
On the other hand Pete Rose does deserve to get in because of his accomplishments.

[ssigman]

stop you're reverse pyschology act....

and a very good player?? how about one of the top 10 players of all-time....

o.j. is in the hall of fame...did they take him out cause he was accused of murder...no....if that doesn't do it..then why shouldn't rose be admitted to the hof based on his baseball career?? i don't even believe you think he shouldn't be in the hof...

[Gunnerman]

From what I remember I think the baseball HOF is different from football in that baseball does require the persons off-field actions to scrutinized and considered whereas in football only on-field performance is considered.

Course I could be full of it again......

[BtownJay]

1st, Its NOT reverse psychology, you won and you will see.

2nd, I honestly don't think he should be in the hall and am happy that the time has past so that he can never be in.

3rd, OJ wasn't found guilty of murder. And he didn't murder anyone on the football field.

[Rusty27]