Quarterfinal Match: Murphy's Law vs. Dave M.

[Aveosmth]

The topic for this quarterfinal match was: Who is the greatest quarterback of all time?? Here are the contestants choices???


Murphy's Law picked: Bart Starr

A quiet seventh round draft pick to the Greenbay Packers is the
number one quarterback of all time. A bold statement this day in age
the greatest of all time in sports these days is tantamount to my dad
can beat up your dad,and you know that the verbal fists and in some
places the literal fists are sure to fly. But without a doubt Bart
Starr
is the best quarterback of all time. He wasn't the popular choice. He
isn't the household player that even your grandmother could recollect.
But the fact remains that he is by facts and facts alone the obvious
choice.
Starr churned through the passing stats in the 1960's. His career
interception percentage is the lowest of any passer in the decade, and
his yards-per-pass mark of ( 7.85) is better than that of a score of
quarterbacks who are generally regarded as among the best in history,
including Dan Marino (7.37), Joe Montana (7.52), Roger Staubach (7.67),
Dan Fouts (7.68), Sonny Jurgensen (7.56), Fran Tarkenton (7.27), Y.A.
Tittle (7.52), Terry Bradshaw (7.17) and Joe Namath (7.35). The only
equal to that mark goes by the name Johnny Unitas (7.8)

However even the closest comparison to Starrs' performance was
given
the old timey beat down. The Packers colts rivalry is at best lopsided,
the Packers beating the Colts out with ten wins to Colts five (out of
15
games) Couple that with the fact that Starr due to a dominating Packers
running game finished his career with 2,000 few passes than Unitas with
an equal yards percentage. Even the QB ratings gives the edge to Starr
over Unitas, with 80.5/ 78.2 respectively. Even though Unitas carried
the ball one hundred plus times more than Starr in his career which was
two years longer than Starr he gained only 469 more yards, with a lower
average of yards per carry as well as fewer touchdowns.

What about the big game you ask? Well when it was finally conceived
Starr won the first two and was the MVP of both with a combined 48
attempts 29 completions 1 interception and 290 yards. Unitas went to
one
Superbowl (5) had 25 attempts only 11 completions and had 3
interceptions for 260 yards. Before the Superbowl Lombardi's Packers
with Starr at the helm won five championships Unitas's Colts two. All
in
all close yes but Starr still has the edge. Bart Starr : Best
Quarterback ever.
I'm right your wrong and that's
Murphys' Law.

Dave M. picked: Joe Montana

Who is the greatest quarterback of all-time? That’s a question that avid football fans ask one another all the time. What makes a quarterback the best of all-time? Depending on who you ask, there can be a million different answers to that question. Every time I’m asked this question, however, my answer, without hesitation, is Joe Montana. There are several things that set Joe Montana apart from other quarterbacks, but for the sake of this piece, I’ll try to focus on only a few; his style and poise, his accomplishments and the fact that he got things done when it mattered most – in the Super Bowl. Joe Montana, to me, was an artist. His poise, his style in which he played the game of football is appreciated by football fans in the same fashion that an artist appreciates a masterpiece. His ability to read defenses is second to none. He also was the best at placing the ball where it needed to be. A few years ago, I attended a coach’s clinic at the 49ers facilities in Santa Clara, CA, where Bill Walsh, a man who knows a thing or two about quarterbacks, treated us to a presentation. He explained that in order to be successful in their offense, the quarterback had to be able to not only read the defense, but he had to be able to place the ball EXACTLY where it needed to be. Otherwise, the receivers would get blasted. For example, he explained, if the route called was a curl route and the defender was inside the player, the quarterback had to be able to place the ball on the outside shoulder of the WR. This told the WR which way to turn and run. If the defender were on the outside, he’d throw it inside. This, Walsh explained, is one of the biggest factors in the 49ers having so many “yards after the catch”, or YAC as it is commonly described today. Walsh went on to say that no quarterback had the ability to place the ball as accurately and consistently as Joe Montana did.

The example I just described is one of the contributing factors of Montana’s accomplishments. Montana enjoyed many successes and holds many NFL records. He masterfully engineered 31 4th quarter comebacks, 26 with San Francisco and 5 with Kansas City. He has the 3rd highest quarterback rating All-Time, behind Steve Young and Kurt Warner, which to me, is a joke in itself, since Montana entered the league in 1979, whereas Kurt “the bagger boy” Warner entered in 1998. Montana holds the record for the Most Consecutive Completed Passes (22), he’s 3rd on the list of All-Time completion percentage (63.24%), with only Steve Young (64.28) and the wanna-be QB Warner ahead of him. He amassed 400 yards passing 7 times in his career, second only to Dan Marino, and if anyone that watches football knows, Marino sometimes threw over 60 times per game. Montana was also named the NFL’s most Valuable Player two times during his career.

Montana accomplished many things during his career. But one of the things that makes him stand out amongst the rest is the fact that when it came time to get the job done, he got it done, and in a big way. He has a lot of nicknames, such as Joe Cool and Cool Joe. He was also known as Super Joe because when it came to Super Bowls, he was able to leap tall buildings in a single bound.

Montana owns several Super Bowl records. He has the highest Super Bowl Passer Rating with a whopping 127.8. The only thing higher than that is the temperature in Arizona in the middle of summer. He’s holds the record for most completed passes, 83. He once completed 13 straight passes in a game, also a record. He’s 2nd on the list for completion percentage with 68%, second only to Troy Aikman at 70%. He’s gained more yards (1,142) than any other quarterback in Super Bowl history and has thrown the most TD passes (11).

The next two stats are even more amazing. He’s the only player in the history of the Super Bowl to be named Super Bowl MVP three times. I think that has something to do with the fact that in 122 pass attempts, NONE were intercepted. Take that, Rich Gannon.

Records aside, Joe Montana spearheaded arguably the best comeback in the history of the Super Bowl. So great this drive was, it was soon labeled “the drive”. In Super Bowl XXIII, down 16-13 with 1:30 on the clock and at the 49ers 8-yard line, Montana looked at his teammates in the huddle, told them, “Let’s go, be tough.” Then, living up to his name, Joe Cool, he points to the crowd and said, “Hey, isn’t that John Candy right there?” His teammates, amazed at how calm he was, knew then and there they had the best man for the job. They knew they could count on him to lead them to the promise land. And that he did.

On a beautifully executed, 92 yard drive, Montana got all his receivers involved, spreading the ball to Jerry Rice, John Frank, Roger Craig, setting up the stage for the infamous pass across the middle of the end zone to John Taylor for the touchdown, and victory. During “the drive”, a Cincinnati Bengal told teammate and now announcer, Cris Collinsworth, “I think we got them now”. And he replied, “Have you taken a look at who is quarterbacking the 49ers?” That, in itself, is a testament to how great Montana was and is.

There have been a lot of good quarterbacks in the NFL. There will be a lot of good quarterbacks in the years to come, too. There have only been a handful of truly “great” quarterbacks, none as great as Joe Montana. I get a kick out of the fact that when rookie quarterbacks are entering the league, the question always asked is, “Who will be the next Joe Montana?” To me, that’s as stupid as asking, “Who will be the next Michael Jordan?” The answer is that there will never be another Joe Montana. There can only be one All-Time Greatest Quarterback, there will only be one Joe Montana.

[Aveosmth]

Here are their rebuttals. These are always fun to read!!

Murphy's Rebuttal:

How does one define greatness? Websters Dictionary states that
greatest is defined as ** remarkable in magnitude, degree, or
effectiveness. Effective, for one to be great one must be effective in
all areas. Bart Starr came to a team that in 1958 went 1-10-1. He sat
as
a back up watching a team going over the brink. In 1959 Bart starr led
his team on a four game streak that would put the Packers in contention
for the championship. It was only the second winning season the Packers
had had in the past 11 years. Tragicly the Packers lost to the Eagles
13-17. It was the last playoff game that Starr would ever lose.
Bart Starrs effectivenes began to blossom in 61', the Packers would go
onto win the League Championship. Then Starr pushed the Packers to the
League Championship again the next year. After a two year skid the
Packers led by Starr, would go on a streak by which all others would be
compared, winning the League Championship twice in a row, and then its
reconfigured son the Super Bowl twice as well. Bart Star being named
its
first MVP both years.
There are many statistics on which to judge a Qb. Interceptions,
attempts, touchdowns, all come into play. My esteemed blogger in a
meeting with Bill Walsh states " ... (Qb) had to be able to place the
ball EXACTLY where it needed to be. Otherwise, the receivers would get
blasted..(this)is one of the biggest factors in the 49ers having so
many
“yards after the catch”. He went on to say "that no quarterback had the
ability to place the ball as accurately and consistently as Joe Montana
did." My congratulations to Joe Montana getting the ball to the
reciever. He may have helped the runner get more yards, but the pass
alone is all he gets credit for.
In 1974, while previewing the Miami Dolphins-Minnesota Vikings Super
Bowl, football analyst Bud Goode revealed that yards per throw, that is
just plain yards gained passing divided by the number of throws was pro
football's premier statistic, the one that correlated best with
winning.
Goode has been quoted that he wanted the inscription on his headstone
to
read "Here lies Bud Goode: He told the world about yards per throw."
The
football world is still absorbing what great NFL coaches have always
instinctively known In over 40 years from Johnny Unitas' sudden-death
victory over the New York Giants to the Rams victory over the Titans,
only one team Bill Parcells' 1997 New England Patriots, has played for
the NFL championship while failing to average more yards per throw on
offense than it gave up on defense. Over the last two decades the team
that averaged the highest number of yards per throw in a game has won
more than 80 percent of the time. The Point to this you might ask?
Starrs yards per pass (7.85) Montana (7.52), once again Bart Star
defines greatness with effectiveness and magnitude..
The totals put up in these games and in these seasons may not be overly
impressive in this day in age. However, these games late in the season
weren't played in domes, or in the land of warm breezes and palm trees.
These games being played up north in the heartland of America defining
the spirit of football as we know it today. In 1961 and again in 1962,
the Packers faced the New York Giants in the Leauge Championship game.
The most prominent Giant was the balding veteran quarterback Y.A.
Tittle, who was enjoying the first two years of an amazing three-season
run in which he would throw 86 touchdown passes in 41 games. But Green
Bay might as well have been in Alaska on New Year's Eve in 1961, and
then the following year on Dec. 30 a second ice age was moving into New
York. Starr was 19 of 38 for 249 yards, nearly 6.5 yards per pass,
while
Tittle was able to complete just 24 of 61 passes for 262 yards, just a
little over five yards a throw. Tittle failed to throw a touchdown pass
in either game and was intercepted five times; Starr had three
touchdown
passes with no interceptions. The Packers won both games by a combined
score of 53-7.
In what is possibly the greatest game ever played " The Ice Bowl" Don
"Dandy" Meredith was frozen cold as he gained only 59 yards on 25
passes. While Starr threw 24 times for 191 yards then won the game on
grit alone, thrusting himself into the endzone to win the game on a Qb
keeper. All of this as the wind and weather pushed the mercury down to
at times 45 below. Even Johnny Unitas arguably the the greatest Qb ever
could not top Bart Starr. The Colts were just 5 of 15 against Starrs'
Packers.
Bart Starr thats all there is. There are no fancy nicknames, no flash,
and no bling. There is a complete domination of the eras best. The
first
ever superbowl wins with MVP's to boot, and 4 more of its daddy the NFL
Championship game.All in all double the championships put in by
Montanas' 49ers. Bart Starr one of the last true field generals,
calling
plays in the huddle, playing more against the forces of nature than the
forces of man. Remarkably effective don't you think, and isn't that how
we define the greatest?

I'm right your wrong and that's
Murphys' Law

Dave's Rebuttal:


My opponent in this Point/Counterpoint contest said in his Point, "Bart Starr : Best Quarterback ever. I'm right your wrong and that's Murphys' Law." Well, my friend, I say this to you. Murphy’s Law certainly doesn’t apply here because there is no way that Bart Starr is the Greatest Quarterback of All-Time. Instead of invoking Murphy’s Law, perhaps a Darwin Award is more appropriate because my opponent has definitely missed “The Point”.

Based on my opponents “facts and facts alone”, let’s compare Bart Starr and Joe Montana. He said, “His (Starr) career interception percentage is the lowest of any passer in the decade.” That’s great and all, but we’re not talking about the best QB of a decade. We’re talking All-Time here. Like I said, my opponent missed “The Point.”

It gets worse, however. Bart Starr’s career interception percentage might have been acceptable to my opponent. Starr had 138 interceptions over his career, one less than Montana’s 139. What’s missing here is the “facts and facts alone” that Montana had 5,391 pass attempts, while Starr only had 3,149. That’s a difference of 2,242 attempts. Speaking in terms of percentages, Bart Starr’s interception percentage was 0.043823, while Montana’s was 0.025784. I figure that if we’re going to claim a quarterback the greatest, you can’t compare him to just the qb’s in one decade…you gotta compare him to all that ever played. Again, my opponent missed “The Point”. Granted, Bart Starr did have a higher yards-per-pass mark than Joe Montana did (7.85 – 7.52). This is, however, a stat that is hardly a deal breaker in determining who the Greatest QB of All-Time is. It seems that my opponent is really pinning a lot of hopes on this stat as this is the ONLY stat he uses in comparing Bart Starr to multiple quarterbacks. The only other time he compares Starr to another QB is when he compares his meager stats to those of Johnny Unitas.



My opponent then goes on to talk about QB ratings, yet he only compares Starr with Unitas. He boasts how Starr’s QB rating is higher than Unitas’ (80.5/ 78.2 respectively). That’s fantastic, but he fails to mention that Joe Montana’s QB rating is the 3rd highest of All-Time. Montana’s QB rating of 92.3 blows Starr’s rating of 80.5 out of the water. I hate to sound like a broken record, but he once again has missed “The Point.”

Now we move onto the biggest blunder of all. Super Bowl. My opponent has missed “The Point” so bad on this one that I’m positive that he wouldn’t hit water if he fell out of a boat. Again, comparing Starr only to Unitas, my opponent states how Starr played in the first two super bowls, winning both. That’s quite an achievement. But it’s nothing compared to the fact that Montana played in four Super Bowls, winning all four. Well, not to be outdone, Starr completed a combined 29 of 48 passes (60%) for 290 yards, and he only threw 1 interception. Unfortunately for my opponent, Montana completed a combined 83 of 122 passes (68%) for a Super Bowl record 1, 142 yards. And in all 4 games and 122 pass attempts, he threw ZERO interceptions. Montana passed for more yards (357) in Super Bowl XXIII alone, more than the total combined yards that Starr threw for in Super Bowls I and II. Yes, Starr was named Super Bowl MVP twice, but again, Montana’s got him beat, being the only NFL player to win that honor 3 times.


I don’t want to take anything away from Bart Starr. He was a pretty good quarterback, but to say that he’s the Greatest of All Time is way off the mark. No quarterback affected the game of football more than Joe Montana. No quarterback was as successful as Montana. The bottom line is this. If we all were given the opportunity to build a team from scratch, and the choice at QB was between Bart Starr and Joe Montana, I would be willing to be any amount of money that a majority of people would take Joe. It’s a no-brainer. Like my opponent said, the facts and facts alone don’t lie. Montana is the Greatest Quarterback of All-Time….and that's MY POINT!!

[Aveosmth]

Judging has almost been completed for this contest and will be submitted shortly!!

[Shane]

What a great topic!!!

Chime in everyone, and let your voice be heard.

[ssigman]

bart starr!!!!! best qb of all time???? i think the competition was over the second he picked him....statistically he's not the best qb, intangibles he's not the best qb....fan's perspective he's not the best qb...competition was over before it started

[BtownJay]

picking Bart Starr >>>>>>> not doing one at all.

> = better than
>>>>>>>> = your a retard.

[Aveosmth]

Ladies and gentleman,

The winner, by a KNOCKOUT is: DAVE M.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(A knockout is declared when the difference between the contestants is 12 points or greater when all three scorecards are combined)

Judges Comments--The Article Round

Murphy's Law: First of all, Murphy's Law does NOT state "I am right, you are wrong". It states, "Anything that can go wrong will go wrong". This is pretty much the case with your article as well. I will admit, it took balls to take on Bart Starr, but seriously, the best QB of all time? You had some good facts in there, but I would hardly rank him as the best. Top 5 MAYBE. You made some good points, and had the stats to back them up, but you did not compare Starr to any QB in recent years.

Murphy's Law: I give you tons of credit for choosing Bart Starr, but the article left me needing more.

Dave M: Dave, you chose Joe. This was a nice safe choice, now wasn't it? I could train a monkey to watch MNF, and ask him to type out an article on the best QB of all time, and I'd bet the monkey would choose Joe. However, safe though it may be, you did it well. You covered stats (especially that all important Super Bowl stat), and antecdotes. The Bill Walsh story was the ringer. While I disagree about Montana being the greatest ever, I nod to you in this round.

Dave M: Dave, you nailed it w/the Bill Walsh reference. That was exactly what the judges look for; a good thesis, backed up with real analysis.

Dave M: Murphy's Law was good, but it looks like you have been preparing to write this article your whole life.

The Rebuttal Round


Murphy's Law:In your "attempt" to rebutt an article on Joe Montana, you did nothing but talk about how great Bart Starr was. You actually covered many QB's, but seldom mentioned Joe. Not a good move. Granted, it was written well if it were an article, but it was a piss poor rebuttal.

Murphy's Law: I thought you relied much too heavily on your pass per catch reference. I didn't think you developed that nearly enough for me to give you the nod over Dave.

Dave M:Like Murphy, you focused quite a bit on building Montana, rather than defeating Starr. However, you DID have the facts to back up your argument, and you combined the two stories, rather than making a discombobulated mess. Great job.

Dave M: Even though you seemed to cruise a bit through this round, there was enough style and substance to carry you through.

Dave M: You just might be the guy to beat in this competition!!

[BigKev]

Good Job Bay Area DAve.

[Dave M]

Judges, I appreciate the comments. Hopefully I can keep it going into the next challenge.

Murphy, took balls to go w/ Bart Starr. Gotta give you props for that. Good luck w/ your next one.

[Dave M]

Thank you, L.A. Kevin, dba Bay Area Kev. haha

[BtownJay]

Congrats Dave... good luck next round.

[Dave M]

Thanks, Btown. You too.