Semi-Final Matchup: BtownJay vs. NickinDallas

Aveosmth · June 9th, 2005, 11:19 AM

They will be writing about a professional hockey topic. This ought to be a really good match!!!!

KP · June 9th, 2005, 04:32 PM

Oh wow! I hope it's gonna be about who is right and who is wrong regarding the lockout!

Rusty27 · June 9th, 2005, 04:48 PM

It's about contracting the Anaheim Mighty Ducks!
Just kidding.
The lockout would be a good topic though.
Ishkur would be great on the players side.He has some really good stuff against
the owners.

BtownJay · June 9th, 2005, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KP

Oh wow! I hope it's gonna be about who is right and who is wrong regarding the lockout!

Are u kidding? You would have to read and judge 10 page reports! lol, oops, did i just give away that this will not be the topic?

NICKinDALLAS · June 9th, 2005, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BtownJay

did i just give away that this will not be the topic?

NOT THE TOPIC??? What have I been writing on?!?

ssigman · June 9th, 2005, 07:37 PM

haha i know the topic...nanny nanny na na

BtownJay · June 10th, 2005, 03:58 PM

Good luck Nick, I'm all done and it's in the hands of the judges now. Let's see if they also realize how WRONG you are. lol, just messin with you... good first article.

NICKinDALLAS · June 11th, 2005, 12:52 AM

Ya know, as soon as I saw the topic we had, I knew who you'd be writing on (and I'm sure you knew mine). Good Luck to you as well.

Aveosmth · June 12th, 2005, 01:11 PM

This match is now in the hands of the judges, a decision should be made shortly!!

Aveosmth · June 12th, 2005, 01:32 PM

Ok, the topic on this battle was:

Which ex-Edmonton Oiler had the greatest legacy besides Wayne Gretzky. The choices were Yari Curri, Paul Coffey, and Mark Messier. Nick chose Mark Messier while Btown chose Paul Coffey.

Nick chose: Mark Messier

Imagine; if you will, what it must be like to be considered a man among boys, for that matter, a god among men. Imagine women wanting you and men wanting to be you. Something similar to a Dallas Cowboy in the 90’s; a boston celtic in the 60’s; a new york yankee in (pick a year); or Mike, in his mind.

I say similar because these groups share a spotlight within their cities. Now imagine that you don’t have to share that spotlight and one might start to understand what it must have been like to be an edmonton oiler in the late 80’s. In a city that lives and dies with its’ only true sport, Mark Messier was all of the above and more.

That has got to be the pinnacle right? You can’t do any better, so let’s pack it up and head home.

Not so fast. After winning 5 Cups in the last 6 of his years with the oilers, what does Mark do for an encore? How about: play in over 900 more games, rack up 853 more points (173 of these after he turned 40), play in 8 all-star games, take home a Hart Trophy (MVP Regular Season), take home a Pearson Award (MVP as voted by the players), and oh yeah, throw another Stanley Cup in there while you’re at it.

And speaking of that Stanly Cup, the rangers didn’t win it, HE did. I know, I know, he couldn’t have won it all by himself, but he came awful close. The Rangers were down 3-2 in games to New Jersey in the Eastern Conference finals. Messier publicly guaranteed a game six win. Now normally this type of thing does not impress me. It is a comment usually made by some nimrod and is frowned upon by theidiots’ teammates (see dikembe mutombo this year vs the Mavs).

But Messier, what does he do? He followed up on his promise with a stellar performance, scoring anatural hat-trick in the third period to bring his team back from elimination and force a seventh game. A natural hat trick? Are you kidding me? Kids, that’s not just calling your shot. That’s calling the shot, section, row and seat! Then, just cuz, he went ahead and scored the Cup-winning goal in the finals.

Messier is respected by all who play the game but I think former defenseman Ric Nattress summed it up the best, "Big. Strong. Fast. Great shot. Physical. Mean. Durable. Great leader. What else could you possibly ask for in any individual? Twenty years ago when he broke into this league, Mark Messier was the prototype for a franchise player. And he'll continue to be the prototype. Today, tomorrow and a hundred years from now."

Btown chose: Paul Coffey

The 1980’s era of the NHL was certainly owned by the Edmonton Oilers. The Oil had put together an incredible group of talent who won four cups in a span of five years. But the question is, which one of these players (not named Wayne Gretzky) had the best career after they left the Oilers? My answer to that question would be Paul Coffey.

After leaving Edmonton before the ’87-’88 season and ending up in Pittsburgh, Paul picked right up where he left off. As a defenseman, Paul recorded back-to-back 100+ point seasons in ’89 and ’90. As the anchor for the Penguins defense and special teams, he helped lead the team to a Stanley Cup victory in the ’90-’91 season. During that year he also recorded 93 points in the regular season, and added another 11 (in only 12 games) in the post season.

Coffey was traded to the Detroit Red Wings in the ’92-’93 season, and again never missed a beat. In 1995 Coffey (as a defenseman) led the entire Wings team in scoring, and was awarded the Norris Trophy as the leagues top D-man. Yes, you read that right, he was the BEST defenseman in the league, PLUS he had the most points on a good team. This was 15 years after making his pro debut in Edmonton. Besides Gretzky, no other ex-Oiler won a major award that many years after leaving the team. Paul was also named to 8 all-star teams after he left the Oilers.

Coffey played with 9 teams though out his great career. He was always desired by teams making playoff pushes because of his all around abilities. He was a great addition to teams because he could quarterback their power play, shut opponents down on defense and penalty killing, and score timely goals with his booming shot. Paul was just a special type of athlete who could literally do it all. Being able to play at such a high level for 13+ years after leaving Edmonton makes his career the best after leaving the dynasty.

Nick's Rebuttal:

Paul Coffey? Ha! (Quick, think of something cleaver to say about what an asinine choice this was.) (Still waiting). Truth is, it’s pretty darn good, but as the saying goes “Missed it by that much” (shows thumb and first finger very close together).

Mark Messier and Paul Coffey are answers 1 and 1a to the question of what ex-oiler not named Gretzky had the best career. Both won Stanley Cups after they left, both won major individual awards – Messier 2, Coffey 1, both played in 8 All-Star games, and both were considered excellent two way players.

So what makes Paul 1a instead of the king of the mountain? Longevity. From 1997 through the 2000-2001 season, Paul averaged less than 50 games a season, during the same time period Messier averaged over 72. In his last season Paul played only 18 games, he was 39. When Messier was 39 he played in 66 games and tallied a total of 54 points. In the year before the lockout, Messier played in 76 games and racked up his age in points (43).

In his latter years Coffey’s point totals drop off dramatically. The ‘he was a defensiveman’ argument doesn’t hold water here as we have already established that both players were both offensive and defensive threats. In the 95-96 season, Paul had 74 points. After that season he would average just 24 points per season for the rest of his career.

Coffey was considered a great player. Messier, a leader. The difference is ever so slight, but it is there.

You could do considerably worse than to have to choose between these two Hall of Famers to be on your team. For my money, however, give me Mark Messier ‘by just that much’ (shows thumb and first finger very close together).

Btown's Rebuttal:

Mark Messier did I fact have a great career, and I don’t want my rebuttal to sound like I am trying to dispute that. However, Nick’s whole article seemed to center around two years after Mark left Edmonton. I have a hard time saying he is the best because of two stellar years.

And since when in the world of sports does “calling your shot” or making guarantees elevate you to superstar status if you come through? I guess that makes Rasheed Wallace three times better than Messier?? The fact that he made a guarantee has no relevance in quantifying his ‘post-Oiler’ career. In the Stanley Cup finals he scored the game winning goal with seven minutes left in the 2nd period. I’m sure Mike Richter would be happy to hear you giving all the credit for the win to Messier. I’m sure Richter didn’t have to stand on his head for 27 minutes to make the lead hold up.

Now let’s pretend for a minute that Mark did win the cup “all by himself” in 1994. What happened from 1997 to 2004 where he couldn’t even help his teams make the playoffs? Really, who can’t help lead his team into the playoffs for seven straight years in the NHL? Don’t you have to submit a request to miss the playoffs in the NHL? In those seven years he averaged 17 goals a year. There are guys on most teams 3rd lines that average that. Not very impressive for someone who is supposed to be on the top producing line.

The comparison between Paul Coffey and Mark Messier is a tough one because they played two different positions. However, Coffey was a guy who teams wanted to help them in the playoffs. He was traded to teams to help lift that team over the top and into the playoffs. Messier couldn’t even take the team with the highest salaries into the playoffs. I will be nice to Mark, and go easy on his three embarrassing years he spent in Vancouver. He averaged 54 points per year in the three seasons he spent in the “Great White North”. I’m sure they couldn’t wait to ship him back to New York.

Nick wrote:

“Messier is respected by all who play the game but I think former defenseman Ric Nattress summed it up the best, "Big. Strong. Fast. Great shot. Physical. Mean. Durable. Great leader. What else could you possibly ask for in any individual? Twenty years ago when he broke into this league, Mark Messier was the prototype for a franchise player. And he'll continue to be the prototype. Today, tomorrow and a hundred years from now."

That’s great, and Ric summed it up very nicely. But what does this have to do with him being better than Paul Coffey after they left the Oilers? If we are going to go with nice heart warming quotes, I’ll leave you with one from “Legends of Hockey.net”….

“Smooth-skating Paul Coffey embodied everything and offensive defenseman could be- lightning, skilled playmaker, booming shot, savvy – yet still was able to defend his team’s zone employing blinding speed.”

NICKinDALLAS · June 12th, 2005, 03:06 PM

Whadda ya know, Messier is on LoH.net as well,

Like Gordie Howe, Messier is credited with being the most complete player of his generation. He was a power forward, a two-way left winger and sometime center with talent and overwhelming power and size and an unpredictable mean streak.

Good job Jay. Good luck.

June 9th, 2005, 11:19 AM	#1
Aveosmth Loyalist Join Date: 01-28-2005 Posts: 241 Tournaments Joined: 0 Tournament Wins: 0	Semi-Final Matchup: BtownJay vs. NickinDallas They will be writing about a professional hockey topic. This ought to be a really good match!!!!

June 9th, 2005, 04:32 PM	#2
KP blank Join Date: 07-08-2002 Posts: 1,988 Tournaments Joined: 0 Tournament Wins: 0	Oh wow! I hope it's gonna be about who is right and who is wrong regarding the lockout! __________________ It's a RANT DADDY world.....and we're all just livin' in it!

June 9th, 2005, 04:48 PM	#3
Rusty27 Good ol' Rocky Top;Rocky Top,Tennessee Join Date: 07-15-2004 Location: Knoxville,Tenn. Posts: 31,377 Tournaments Joined: 0 Tournament Wins: 0	It's about contracting the Anaheim Mighty Ducks! Just kidding. The lockout would be a good topic though. Ishkur would be great on the players side.He has some really good stuff against the owners. __________________

June 11th, 2005, 12:52 AM	#8
NICKinDALLAS Registered Opinionated Smartass Join Date: 11-25-2004 Location: Um, really? Posts: 2,769 Tournaments Joined: 0 Tournament Wins: 0	Ya know, as soon as I saw the topic we had, I knew who you'd be writing on (and I'm sure you knew mine). Good Luck to you as well. __________________ "Humanity is a parade of fools, and I am at the front, twirling a baton."

June 12th, 2005, 03:06 PM	#11
NICKinDALLAS Registered Opinionated Smartass Join Date: 11-25-2004 Location: Um, really? Posts: 2,769 Tournaments Joined: 0 Tournament Wins: 0	Whadda ya know, Messier is on LoH.net as well, Like Gordie Howe, Messier is credited with being the most complete player of his generation. He was a power forward, a two-way left winger and sometime center with talent and overwhelming power and size and an unpredictable mean streak. Good job Jay. Good luck. __________________ "Humanity is a parade of fools, and I am at the front, twirling a baton."

June 9th, 2005, 07:37 PM	#6
ssigman <----the rant's sean avery Join Date: 03-15-2004 Posts: 28,869 Tournaments Joined: 0 Tournament Wins: 0	haha i know the topic...nanny nanny na na

June 12th, 2005, 01:11 PM	#9
Aveosmth Loyalist Join Date: 01-28-2005 Posts: 241 Tournaments Joined: 0 Tournament Wins: 0	This match is now in the hands of the judges, a decision should be made shortly!!

June 12th, 2005, 01:32 PM	#10
Aveosmth Loyalist Join Date: 01-28-2005 Posts: 241 Tournaments Joined: 0 Tournament Wins: 0	Ok, the topic on this battle was: Which ex-Edmonton Oiler had the greatest legacy besides Wayne Gretzky. The choices were Yari Curri, Paul Coffey, and Mark Messier. Nick chose Mark Messier while Btown chose Paul Coffey. Nick chose: Mark Messier Imagine; if you will, what it must be like to be considered a man among boys, for that matter, a god among men. Imagine women wanting you and men wanting to be you. Something similar to a Dallas Cowboy in the 90’s; a boston celtic in the 60’s; a new york yankee in (pick a year); or Mike, in his mind. I say similar because these groups share a spotlight within their cities. Now imagine that you don’t have to share that spotlight and one might start to understand what it must have been like to be an edmonton oiler in the late 80’s. In a city that lives and dies with its’ only true sport, Mark Messier was all of the above and more. That has got to be the pinnacle right? You can’t do any better, so let’s pack it up and head home. Not so fast. After winning 5 Cups in the last 6 of his years with the oilers, what does Mark do for an encore? How about: play in over 900 more games, rack up 853 more points (173 of these after he turned 40), play in 8 all-star games, take home a Hart Trophy (MVP Regular Season), take home a Pearson Award (MVP as voted by the players), and oh yeah, throw another Stanley Cup in there while you’re at it. And speaking of that Stanly Cup, the rangers didn’t win it, HE did. I know, I know, he couldn’t have won it all by himself, but he came awful close. The Rangers were down 3-2 in games to New Jersey in the Eastern Conference finals. Messier publicly guaranteed a game six win. Now normally this type of thing does not impress me. It is a comment usually made by some nimrod and is frowned upon by theidiots’ teammates (see dikembe mutombo this year vs the Mavs). But Messier, what does he do? He followed up on his promise with a stellar performance, scoring anatural hat-trick in the third period to bring his team back from elimination and force a seventh game. A natural hat trick? Are you kidding me? Kids, that’s not just calling your shot. That’s calling the shot, section, row and seat! Then, just cuz, he went ahead and scored the Cup-winning goal in the finals. Messier is respected by all who play the game but I think former defenseman Ric Nattress summed it up the best, "Big. Strong. Fast. Great shot. Physical. Mean. Durable. Great leader. What else could you possibly ask for in any individual? Twenty years ago when he broke into this league, Mark Messier was the prototype for a franchise player. And he'll continue to be the prototype. Today, tomorrow and a hundred years from now." Btown chose: Paul Coffey The 1980’s era of the NHL was certainly owned by the Edmonton Oilers. The Oil had put together an incredible group of talent who won four cups in a span of five years. But the question is, which one of these players (not named Wayne Gretzky) had the best career after they left the Oilers? My answer to that question would be Paul Coffey. After leaving Edmonton before the ’87-’88 season and ending up in Pittsburgh, Paul picked right up where he left off. As a defenseman, Paul recorded back-to-back 100+ point seasons in ’89 and ’90. As the anchor for the Penguins defense and special teams, he helped lead the team to a Stanley Cup victory in the ’90-’91 season. During that year he also recorded 93 points in the regular season, and added another 11 (in only 12 games) in the post season. Coffey was traded to the Detroit Red Wings in the ’92-’93 season, and again never missed a beat. In 1995 Coffey (as a defenseman) led the entire Wings team in scoring, and was awarded the Norris Trophy as the leagues top D-man. Yes, you read that right, he was the BEST defenseman in the league, PLUS he had the most points on a good team. This was 15 years after making his pro debut in Edmonton. Besides Gretzky, no other ex-Oiler won a major award that many years after leaving the team. Paul was also named to 8 all-star teams after he left the Oilers. Coffey played with 9 teams though out his great career. He was always desired by teams making playoff pushes because of his all around abilities. He was a great addition to teams because he could quarterback their power play, shut opponents down on defense and penalty killing, and score timely goals with his booming shot. Paul was just a special type of athlete who could literally do it all. Being able to play at such a high level for 13+ years after leaving Edmonton makes his career the best after leaving the dynasty. Nick's Rebuttal: Paul Coffey? Ha! (Quick, think of something cleaver to say about what an asinine choice this was.) (Still waiting). Truth is, it’s pretty darn good, but as the saying goes “Missed it by that much” (shows thumb and first finger very close together). Mark Messier and Paul Coffey are answers 1 and 1a to the question of what ex-oiler not named Gretzky had the best career. Both won Stanley Cups after they left, both won major individual awards – Messier 2, Coffey 1, both played in 8 All-Star games, and both were considered excellent two way players. So what makes Paul 1a instead of the king of the mountain? Longevity. From 1997 through the 2000-2001 season, Paul averaged less than 50 games a season, during the same time period Messier averaged over 72. In his last season Paul played only 18 games, he was 39. When Messier was 39 he played in 66 games and tallied a total of 54 points. In the year before the lockout, Messier played in 76 games and racked up his age in points (43). In his latter years Coffey’s point totals drop off dramatically. The ‘he was a defensiveman’ argument doesn’t hold water here as we have already established that both players were both offensive and defensive threats. In the 95-96 season, Paul had 74 points. After that season he would average just 24 points per season for the rest of his career. Coffey was considered a great player. Messier, a leader. The difference is ever so slight, but it is there. You could do considerably worse than to have to choose between these two Hall of Famers to be on your team. For my money, however, give me Mark Messier ‘by just that much’ (shows thumb and first finger very close together). Btown's Rebuttal: Mark Messier did I fact have a great career, and I don’t want my rebuttal to sound like I am trying to dispute that. However, Nick’s whole article seemed to center around two years after Mark left Edmonton. I have a hard time saying he is the best because of two stellar years. And since when in the world of sports does “calling your shot” or making guarantees elevate you to superstar status if you come through? I guess that makes Rasheed Wallace three times better than Messier?? The fact that he made a guarantee has no relevance in quantifying his ‘post-Oiler’ career. In the Stanley Cup finals he scored the game winning goal with seven minutes left in the 2nd period. I’m sure Mike Richter would be happy to hear you giving all the credit for the win to Messier. I’m sure Richter didn’t have to stand on his head for 27 minutes to make the lead hold up. Now let’s pretend for a minute that Mark did win the cup “all by himself” in 1994. What happened from 1997 to 2004 where he couldn’t even help his teams make the playoffs? Really, who can’t help lead his team into the playoffs for seven straight years in the NHL? Don’t you have to submit a request to miss the playoffs in the NHL? In those seven years he averaged 17 goals a year. There are guys on most teams 3rd lines that average that. Not very impressive for someone who is supposed to be on the top producing line. The comparison between Paul Coffey and Mark Messier is a tough one because they played two different positions. However, Coffey was a guy who teams wanted to help them in the playoffs. He was traded to teams to help lift that team over the top and into the playoffs. Messier couldn’t even take the team with the highest salaries into the playoffs. I will be nice to Mark, and go easy on his three embarrassing years he spent in Vancouver. He averaged 54 points per year in the three seasons he spent in the “Great White North”. I’m sure they couldn’t wait to ship him back to New York. Nick wrote: “Messier is respected by all who play the game but I think former defenseman Ric Nattress summed it up the best, "Big. Strong. Fast. Great shot. Physical. Mean. Durable. Great leader. What else could you possibly ask for in any individual? Twenty years ago when he broke into this league, Mark Messier was the prototype for a franchise player. And he'll continue to be the prototype. Today, tomorrow and a hundred years from now." That’s great, and Ric summed it up very nicely. But what does this have to do with him being better than Paul Coffey after they left the Oilers? If we are going to go with nice heart warming quotes, I’ll leave you with one from “Legends of Hockey.net”…. “Smooth-skating Paul Coffey embodied everything and offensive defenseman could be- lightning, skilled playmaker, booming shot, savvy – yet still was able to defend his team’s zone employing blinding speed.”