Ishkur-Mark C. Quarterfinal Thread

[Aveosmth]

This is the thread that will house this quarterfinal matchup. All predictions, comments & questions should be posed here. Once the articles are finished, the results will also be posted here.

[ssigman]

good luck to both of you.....if mark loses, i wonder if he'll start the ishkur thread

[Shane]

This is the one I am looking forward to most.

[Gunnerman]

This one will be an instant classic!

[ssigman]

i think its already a classic and it hasn't even been done yet...amazing...lets all rejoice

[BtownJay]

I will predict their rebuttals will be 5,000 words each. This could set all time P/CP records.

[ssigman]

at least we know jay won his round already...or so he says

[Ishkur]

When does this stuff go live?

I thought it was going to be quicker than this...and more public. It's been about two weeks, and we're not even done Round 1. How much longer is this going to take?

[Aveosmth]

How funny, I just sent you a PM Iskhur

The results from round one will be announced by Sunday.

I understand your frustration, and I am working on speeding up the process.

[Aveosmth]

One more thing...it will DEFINITELY be public!!! You can bet your Canadian dollar on that one.

[Ishkur]

I'm not frustrated. I'm just, like......c'mon, let's pick up the pace here.

[Shane]

I'm getting the articles now, at a glance I'd have to say this is going to be AWESOME!!!

I'll have my scores in tonight.

[mark_chalifoux]

I'm with Ishkur...although this one should have been his if he picked Tretiak

[Ishkur]

Either of us would have lost if we picked Tretiak.

He was never tested against the best of the best on any consistent basis. That puts him in "shoulda-woulda-coulda" territory, which is a lousy argument. Focus on people who actually DID things, not people who might have.

[Shane]

The topic on this one was: Who is the best non-North American born hockey player ever?

Iskhur chose Jaromir Jagr/Mark chose Peter Forsberg

Iskhur's Article:

Jaromir Jagr

At the eve of a new NHL season, with a new emphasis on opening the game
and
making it fun for offense again, Jaromir Jagr is on a mission. He wants
to
prove to everyone that he is still the best player of the post-Gretzky
era,
and easily the best non-North American player to ever grace the NHL.

Jagr’s offensive production has been staggering in an era handcuffed by
stifling defensive strategies the past decade. As of this writing, he
sits
at 1323 career points, good for 24th overall in the entire 100-year
history
of the NHL. The scary part about this is, at age 33, he insists that
his
best days are still ahead of him, and at the pace he’s going, will
probably
pass Jari Kurri (1398) sometime later this year for the spot of most
prolific European sniper of all time. Before all is said and done, if
he
stays healthy, by the time he retires we might see hockey historians
re-sculpt the holy pantheon to put him second, perhaps, only to Gretzky
in
terms of raw offensive point production.

Such a prolific weapon hasn’t gone unnoticed. The Czech has picked up
some
pretty generous hardware over the years: a Gold Medal with the Czech
Republic in the 1998 Olympics (the first Olympics to allow NHL players
to
compete), two Stanley Cups with the Penguins, two Lester B Pearsons and
a
Hart trophy in 1999 despite only playing 63 games. But probably the
most
amazing accomplishment are his scoring titles. Jagr became the first
non-North American player to win the Art Ross trophy when he captured
the
league scoring title in 1995. Since then, he has won it four more
times. For
comparison’s sake, only four other players in league history have at
least
five Art Ross awards sitting on their mantels: Wayne Gretzky (10),
Mario
Lemieux (6), Gordie Howe (6) and Phil Esposito (5). That is some
extraordinarily exclusive company. Jagr is not only the only European
among
this group, but he was also the only player good enough to finally
interrupt
the 16-year succession of Gretzky and Lemieux scoring titles in the 80s
and
90s, as the heir apparent to their reigns.

In 1996, his best season, Jagr broke Mike Bossy’s record for most goals
by a
right-winger with 62 and assists for that same year (87), arguably
making
him the deadliest right-winger in NHL history.

Jagr has impressive work ethic. Back in his days in Pittsburgh, he
often had
a routine where he would show up to the arena two hours before game
time,
before everyone else, and run laps around the upper deck’s hallowed
halls. A
strong proponent of physical fitness and personal improvement, Jagr
never
slacks off or looks for excuses. Only nagging injuries have kept him
from
operating at optimum efficiency.

This year, a re-invigorated Jagr is where he should be—back in the
thick of
the NHL scoring race, with 23 points in 16 games. One could chalk it up
to
enthusiasm after being away for a year, and interest in what the new
league
is like after several years being in a sort of funk due to its
suffocating
defensive paradigms. But personally, I think it’s because he’s growing
his
hair back. He’s like Samson when he has that lovely, curly black mullet
of
his.


Mark's Article:

There have been a plethora of great foreign hockey players, but none were better than Peter Forsberg.

There have been some great Russian players, and Vladislav Tretiak was a player I gave strong consideration before settling on Forsberg. He was one of the greatest goalies to play the game, but my main problem was with the fact that he played too long ago and didn’t play against the top competition in the world. I have the same issue with any player who didn’t play in the NHL or played a few decades ago. The game has changed drastically and the competition has improved tenfold with the addition of foreign players and the different training regimen’s and the defensive changes we’ve seen in the game. There is no question that, prior to the lockout and rules changes, hockey was seeing its toughest offensive period (which was a big reason for the rules changes).

Despite the strong focus on defense in the past 10 years, Peter Forsberg still thrived on the offensive side of the game. From the moment he came into the league, he was a star. His first year in the NHL he won the Calder Trophy (rookie of the year) and led the Nordiques to the top of their division. He’s also won Viking awards (for top Swedish player in the NHL), numerous player of the week and player of the month awards, named first team all-star several times, named captain of the all-world team at the all-star game, and was the first swede to win the Art Ross trophy. Most importantly, he led his team to win the Stanley Cup twice.

Forsberg is considered the game’s best player right now, not the best foreign player, but the best player in the entire league. Since he’s been in the league, he has always been considered one of the elite players. He has been a consistent top-5 choice for the Hockey News top-40 players list every year and even in years he’s limited to injuries he still averages better than a point a game. His game simply does not slow down. The offensive numbers he puts up, during the time when the NHL’s defense was at its best, are simply staggering. He has always either led or been near the top in points per game and, on top of his points, his +/- is always among league leaders.

I think one of his most impressive attributes is his ability to score. Anyone can score with enough shots, but Forsberg has one of the top shots in the game. In the last full season of hockey Forsberg led the league in shooting percentage (an underrated statistic). There is no question in my mind that Forsberg is the best non-North American hockey player because he has consistently performed at the highest level and is one of the game’s most able scorers in history.


Iskhur's Rebuttal:

Peter Forsberg!?!?

Excuse my french, but Peter fucking Forsberg?

Why anyone would count on anything from Sweden to be the best in
anything is
beyond me. Forsberg was lucky he got saddled up with arguably the most
dominant team of the last decade, and he STILL punked out for most of
that
time. Statistically speaking, he isn't even in Jagr's galactic orbit,
let
alone his league. It would be generous to say he can wear Jagr's
jockstrap
for a game or two.

Both players are relatively the same age. Jagr has nearly twice as many
points as Forsberg. And when Jagr got hurt, he still played hard,
through
his injuries, and still averaged over a point a game in a league that
had
gotten so suffocatingly defensive, point-a-game snipers were rare. What
did
Forsberg do during this slugfest? He punked out like a wimp, skedaddled
back
to Sweden and took an ENTIRE YEAR OFF (2001-2002) (and in another
season
only played 39 games before whining and quitting while whining
quittingly)
because the game was too tough for him.

The mark of any great player's legacy to the league he devotes his life
to
is the magical milestone of 500 goals. Peter is lucky if he reaches
300.
That puts him right up there with such legendary hockey powerhouses as
Doug
Weight and Keith Tkachuck. His exploits have been overshadowed by more
prolific Europeans like Peter Bondra and Teemu Selanne. Forsberg is
lucky if
he reaches Hakan Loob status in his own country. Nicklas Lidstrom has
just
as many points, and he's a DEFENCEMEN. His Calder was already slanted
in his
favour: He was 22 when he won that. Yeah, real special award there,
pal.
After already playing professional hockey for five years (four after
he'd
been drafted), narrowly beating out fresh-faced, wet-behind-the-ears,
18
year olds straight out of Junior to win the best "Rookie" award. Give
y